The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast

Ep 26 - Card by card, scenarios, and matchup by matchup ADP strategy, Maths?, Air Fryers, Alex Schemanske's Centiskorch, LMZ

February 03, 2021 Brent Halliburton Season 1 Episode 26
The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
Ep 26 - Card by card, scenarios, and matchup by matchup ADP strategy, Maths?, Air Fryers, Alex Schemanske's Centiskorch, LMZ
Chapters
The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
Ep 26 - Card by card, scenarios, and matchup by matchup ADP strategy, Maths?, Air Fryers, Alex Schemanske's Centiskorch, LMZ
Feb 03, 2021 Season 1 Episode 26
Brent Halliburton
Transcript
Brent:

Just say, I just have to yell at my child for moment. We're almost in a good place here welcome to the trash LH, where here as always attendance is 100%. Uh, I'm Brett Halliburton. We've got brute Pybus and Mike Boucher here as well. Our intro song is Chris Webbies Webster's laboratory. Every once in a while, we should note that he writes some stuff Pokemon and we appreciate it. So we try to use the song in our pod. Um, guys, we got a five star review and you know, this was interesting because I looked in a different place and I found it there and it made me wonder if it had appeared slightly before. And I need to evolve how I think about Apple podcasts, because this was, I believe our first review from great Britain. And I think the Apple podcast, things that I see are somehow filtered for United States stuff.

Mike:

Oh, interesting.

Brent:

So, so it's interesting. I'm really gonna, I'm going to have to kind of reach out and recognize that that we've got lots of listeners beyond our shores and they want to leave reviews as well. Uh, Paul Irish says after several weeks of disappointment over no reviews, here's one to kick the year off. Fantastic podcast that discusses the PCG Metta in great detail with a bit more of a Matsi science-y field and some of the competition. Great for a maths major like myself, keep it up guys. Paul Irish. That is exactly the kind of review we're looking for. We appreciate that sentiment. 100000000%. We are, we are a believer in the map.

Mike:

Yes, we are all definitely believers in maths. I also just a quick comment. I think I agree with the general British notion that maths should be called maths. It does. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense to me. Um, as like a cause it's, you know, mathematics, like math is not a singular thing, right? It's this whole, and I think. In a very subtle way that plays into people's perception of what math is or isn't because it's not one thing, it's a lot of things.

Brit:

Yeah, it's the set that contains it's one thing. It's just the SAB that contains all the other, all math, math.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, I mean with, you know, the universe, the universe, math it's math, again, it can map a singular. That'd be a it's. I mean, I recognize there's many, many different kind of bodies of mathematics, and it's interesting that you point out that, like nobody says mathematic,

Mike:

Right.

Brent:

what does that mean? I don't know.

Brit:

I don't actually know the root of the word. I was trying to think because a lot of the times this sort of thing comes up and. In philosophy, you know, cause like talking about scientists, quote unquote in the 17th century or something there, they're talking about science, but when they use the word, it's just Satan SIA, which is Latin and just means knowledge really. You know, it doesn't quite mean the same thing, but I don't know the root of like math. Obviously it goes back pretty far to the Greeks and such, but you know, there's always some sort of like, Theological information. You can unpack. I find this sort of thing. I don't know. It's interesting to me.

Brent:

mean, even if we want to start, uh, getting like grammar, uh, linguistics, I mean, we could tear apart. Paul's a note which I've exerted because his maths slash science. Why not? Sciences? There's many science,

Mike:

That's true.

Brent:

I feel like it's the same reductiveness but, but it's interesting obviously to hear a, somebody who's a trained mathematician say I prefer maths to math. Uh, um,

Mike:

So the here, this is, this is tangental, but it's a good little story that involves some Pokemon people. So if for some reason, this just popped in my head when we were talking about this, um, a while ago, Bob Zang, you guys know Bob, everybody knows Bob. He was a well, so he's a postdoc right now, I believe at university of Wisconsin. Um, but he was getting his PhD in math at Princeton. Um, and, uh, I was while he was doing that, I was hanging out with Jimmy Muchler and Mike Nadow and Fred Hoban one time after a tournament. And we were talking about, we were talking about math and we were talking about Bob and they asked me like how much of math that I knew compared to Bob. And I thought that was a really interesting question. So, um, you know, I kind of just made this up on the spot, but I feel like it's at least. Conceptually accurate that. So I said to them, I was like, okay. So imagine that on a scale of one to a hundred, a hundred is all of the math that you can know in the world that all that humans currently know. And one is like, uh, you know, elementary school math.

Brent:

But can I interrupt a guess? The answer? I feel like the answer is how much math is Bob forgotten.

Mike:

yeah.

Brent:

Okay. Keep going. Keep going.

Mike:

I said like on that scale, I was probably about maybe a seven and Bob was probably around an 11, like Bob being a PA, me, Bob being a PhD in math, like knows a lot of stuff. And, but the thing is right. They know. Once you get into higher level, you know, so much about your very specific field, but there's so many fields out there it's so hard to be an expert in all of these things. So like, you know, maybe, maybe he was up to like a 15, but maybe not more than a 15 out of a hundred. And I'm like barely, barely hitting 10. Um, if that like 10, I, I probably don't even have 10. I'm probably like in a seven range. So I just think it's there. And I just remember their minds being blown that there was that. Much math.

Brent:

I, you know, it's interesting. I, I w when you say w when you, when you set the bar at like a hundred, I feel like it's, it's a little bit, like, I mean, in its most pure form, I think of, uh, uh, if it is being like, um, You know, the, you understand the nature of the galaxy, like, right. Like if you do that reductive like maths and everything, maths in nature, like big bang, like all of a sudden, you know, like if you know everything. Yeah. Like it's such a big body of knowledge. You're Stephen Hawking meets Albert Einstein meets, you know, like a real mathematician, right? Like all that stuff. Right.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Brent:

The nature of man, like 37. Well, yeah.

Brit:

Okay.

Brent:

Uh, yeah, like, like, uh, you know, I think what's interesting is when, if somebody asked me how much math, I know, like I feel acutely aware of it watching my son in high school math now, like there's just all this math that I've forgotten. Right? Like, I mean, I took Diffy Q in college, so like, I mean,

Mike:

high up there.

Brent:

yeah. Like I'm probably as big of a math nerd as an econ degree can possibly have. But, but like, I look back now and I say, yeah, as you said, there's a, there's a couple of very specific topics that I go extremely deep on in like, from like a data science-y perspective day to day, like understanding how to. Like machine learned things and build models and test and look at P values. Like I still do that cause I dabble it a day to day and I can understand how that part of math has it completely left me. But then he shows me like simple set theory stuff and I'm like, Oh yeah, I don't remember how to do that.

Mike:

Yep. That's how it is.

Brent:

That's all, all long gone.

Brit:

Like, rather than using like a kind of typical numeric scale. I always like to think of things in terms of like Hearthstone rinks or like league of legends rank. Like, I that's how I like to quantify like my, my, um, my hobbies, like ass. It was like, it was like, I think I, you know, I like. Like probably like gold platinum when it comes to like gym knowledge or something, you know, I just, I just enjoy that. I just like thinking of thinking of real world things in terms of like other games and stuff out

Mike:

good. That's

Brit:

Or like, am I an ultra rare? Am I a secret rare at philosophy or something? You know? it's stuff like that.

Brent:

I suspect there's all these things like Bob is obviously, yeah, he's so far down. It's like a specific rat hole doing PhD work. Like there's no question. He knows stuff. That, that we don't know. And yet I'm sure there's, there's like now there's stuff that he's forgotten how to do that. You do a lot and obviously like that whole, you do it so well, you can teach other people to do it. And like he can go back and relearn how to do that. But similarly, like you could go and learn what he's doing. It would just take five years.

Mike:

Yeah, right.

Brent:

would be really hard.

Mike:

and it's kind of funny. So like bringing both of those points in Brent, what you were saying about the ranking system. It it's, it's like a, um, you know, in economic terms, it's I guess a diminishing return curve, but like a logarithmic growth of, of a skill, right? Like it just takes. As you get better at something, it takes so much longer to make the same amount of progress. Right. Um, and yeah, I think that's

Brent:

Yeah, well, it's interesting. I

Mike:

why I would, sorry, sorry you go. was just going to say so like, when you're talking about me learning Bob stuff, it would just take me so long because it's so. It would take me like five years because it's so much harder and so much like the amount of work that I have to put in to like gain even just a little bit of knowledge is a lot work.

Brent:

Right, right.

Brit:

What kind of math does he do

Mike:

He does, um, analysis, which is so real analysis, for example, is, um, more or less proving. Calculus. So it's like the, the background of, of what's going on with calculus to dealing with like infant testimonial, quantities and whatnot. Um, so I think that's his branch of math.

Brent:

Yeah, I know one of the things my son struggles with. He gives the old, like, how will I ever use this in the real world? Like, I don't see any way to like, real world apply this. And unfortunately, my answer for in these days is either like, well, it's one of two things either. Yeah, you're right. You'll never apply it. Or B the problem is you have to learn this stuff so you can learn the next thing. And it's not until you've like leveled up three or four times that you're gonna learn anything that you'll really need, like, you know, the kind of stuff that like Sam Chen's doing or something like that. Like. You, you know, you just, you don't even have the mathematical foundation yet. You know, you, you, you have to get a, you have to get the platinum before you can add any value at all. You're still at Silverman. So yeah, all this stuff feels useless cause it's totally useless.

Brit:

I feel like calc two is the real kind of like maker. That was my hardest class. I thought.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean, just in the calculus sequence, like the second half of calc two is probably the hardest thing that you do in calc one, two and three combined.

Brent:

Good times.

Mike:

Yeah. Anyways.

Brent:

All right. All right. Let's let's super segue from talking about, uh, the value of math and talking about air fryers.

Mike:

Ooh. Did you see, um, who, who posted about it on

Brit:

Did I, I saw your comment on Jay's because I, I almost comment on it on it myself and I saw your comment and I was like, ah,

Brent:

have no idea what we're talking about. What did I miss?

Brit:

but we can talk, Oh, someone J Hornung, just a famous old, old Pokemon name, had a Facebook status, just like asking me about air fryers. I got one for Christmas, myself. I just thought it would be an amusing second to bring up.

Mike:

Have you used it much yet?

Brit:

I use it. Yeah. I've used it a whole lot. I, uh, just use it for kind of the stuff I was already cooking and it doesn't really, I'm a little disappointed in terms I don't do anything different to it. Um, so I don't know what I was expecting, but like taste-wise, it's basically the exact same. It's just so much faster cooking it in a scale that, or the oven or something. It just like I can do all my, all my meal prep really, really fast.

Mike:

Yeah. That, that we definitely do that. I mean, like we cook salmon in there and takes like, Five minutes. We do vegetables in there. The big thing that I would say for tastes that I have really been impressed by is wings. And like, we'll just like, I'll I'll order wings. There's this, there's a couple of different places where, you know, we'll all order wings and usually I would get 10, um, for dinner. Um, but I'll just order 20 and then. I'll eat, maybe like six of them. And I'm like, all right, they're going in. They're fine. They're better after the AirFryer even from a restaurant. So, um, like that, that, that's my number. One thing that the air fryer, the wings are amazing.

Brit:

I have to make something for the super bowl or something.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

I mean, this is interesting. I do not have an air fryer because to me, I keep wondering, like, I guess what's funny is I look at like, InstaPot's, which we somehow ended up with one and all these, like, they seem like they're not like super niche, but kind of niche. And I wonder if I really get sustained value over time out of them, or if they're like a little bit, uh, Um, you know, uh, a one trick pony,

Mike:

They are elite. I agree. They are a little, um, I mean, I have all of these tools because of Kelly, not because I bought them. Um, but we've, so I feel like we do have a lot of

Brent:

because I love the air fryer. I would never buy an air fryer, but I've loved the air fry.

Brit:

have all these things in there for me. I don't actually have an Instapot, but I have a crackpot and the near fryer.

Mike:

Uh, incarc Crock-Pot is a little more versatile, I suppose, than Instapot, but not, not significantly

Brent:

All right. What's uh, what, what else we got going on guys? Is it time to talk about ADP?

Brit:

I think so

Brent:

Let's start. So we P people have been requesting, we do another incredibly deep dive on a deck. ADP seems like the logical choice. Even though it's funny. I tried to go back and scrape up recent results from tournaments and ADP has been banned at so many tournaments. It's like, it's like a little bit trickier to figure out, like, what are the tournaments where, well, our ADP was bad at that tournament. Oh, ADP was bad at that tournament. Like the biggest tournament now I think, or the limitless tournaments. And like there's no ADP at those because ADP is that good. So if you're looking for an endorsement for this deck, We can start by saying it's so good. People have informally banned it because too good. maybe before we dive in, is, uh, brilliant. Have you been playing mostly ADP or did you switch to mostly peek around? Like how much have we been playing ADP in the last week?

Brit:

a bit still, but now I played mostly pick her arm. I played center scorch for like, Two days. And it went really, really, really well. Well the first day, and, and then just terrible after that for whatever reason, um, which was pretty disappointing, but mostly Pika Chu followed by ADP and then sent to scorch. I didn't play any other decks for my keys. No, no random one shops with IntelliJ on it. I didn't even play LMC.

Brent:

And, uh, Mike, have you, I know you played some LMC as it been, every has been a peek around all the time, besides that.

Mike:

I have played one key with ADP. I've played. Maybe like eight, seven or eight with LMC. I played a couple with the Turnitin, cause I didn't really want to think very much. And the rest was Pika. Um, yeah.

Brent:

So I assume your ADP key went badly.

Mike:

Uh, I got top four and then I lost and I just didn't feel like I had any control over either game. Um, so, uh, yeah, I just went back to Piqua after that.

Brit:

Yeah, I made, I mostly made the switch cause I kept playing mirror, which is what Mike has said. I played almost nothing but ADP hammers for like almost two days. It was really, really difficult.

Mike:

that sounds so miserable.

Brit:

It was, I had so many games with peaker on where I had just the most majestic of starts, like open bolt-on attached, like radar, double lightening discard, and then they would, and, you know, charge. And then they're just like three crushing hammers later, uh, Marnie and alter. And so like I'm down to two energy. And then my Marnie hand is also bad, like stuff like that just kept happening. And that's why I eventually switched to center scorch, which, um, it just kind of kept beating itself more than the, that sort of variance. But.

Brent:

So, so maybe we could start there and talking about ADP. I feel like when, when people are at their saddest and they're talking about their losses to ADP, it's ADP hammers, but when you look at like the quote well-known players playing ADP lists, they typically don't play the hammers. Uh, um, but, but the hammer seemed like the ultimate way to make your opponents sad.

Brit:

it is. I th I think it's exactly that it's just, they have two ways to Rob you, and they're just almost opposed ways, like, like two ways where you just don't have any control over the way the game goes. And so they have the double boss tricks where. Kind of whatever, whatever goals you were playing, don't end up mattering. Cause they'd just ended up killing your support Pokemon, and now they have hammers. They can just flip you out of the game too. And it's just, it's just two different ways. And then you combine them at the same time and um, you know, the hammers, maybe give you a game that you wouldn't have won otherwise. And then such that you just are able to find the time to double boss, things like that happen too.

Brent:

Yeah. Like I recognize the consistency of these no hammer lists. Like you look at them and you say, how could they not be insanely consistent and let you just like, get your double boss' off game after game after game. But I also recognize, like, I feel like anytime somebody, if I'm playing ADP or. When I'm playing almost anything else against ADP. Like if they hit one or two early heads on hammers, so hard.

Mike:

Well, and it's the same to the same reason why I think Marnie is actually pretty powerful in the deck. And I don't really agree with people cutting it, like running one or two is even fine, but cutting it to zero seems bad because like, there's just points in the game where, you know, If you go like great catcher K or something, and Marnie on that same turn or on even just if you're, if you're lucky enough to draw the money early and you go ultra creation and Marnie on the same term, just put so much pressure on the opponent immediately. Um, and it's the same logic.

Brent:

So, uh, uh, should we talk about, uh, what you guys think of as, as the ultimate ADP list?

Mike:

Sure. I mean, I've only played the one key and I played pretty close to Isaiah's list as a Brad NERS list. I dropped the second model while for the aura choreo. Um, I think that's it. I think that's the only thing I did. I dropped my while for, you know, our choreo.

Brit:

That's what I started with as well. But I toyed around with it as, you know, the more keys that I played and I ended up with something pretty similar. I put in some, I put in a swell, so I wouldn't just lose still like one power plant. I would at least have like a shot, you know, perhaps if they opened with it against me and I. To find time to DNA later in the game or something like that. But I don't think I ever changed anything. I know I never, I played for for the four top for the whole time, and I'm not sure I've ever really done that. I know I've played a decent amount of ADP in the past, and I'm not sure I've ever played for, um, outside of, for these keys. So that was definitely interesting. Unfortunately, I. I didn't really notice. I mean, that's just variance for you, but I just, I swear, I started elder Goss more than I ever started. and I was thinking about it to myself. Like I was frustrated, but then it was like, well, you know, you do have combined, you know, your three, one or two, two did that make Crow bat and an elder, gosh, that's five Pokemon, maybe even six. That you don't want to open with. So it's like more than still, but then of course you have, it's the odds of only starting with a low in one, rather than having it or another Pokemon to start with. But, um, I didn't play the vitality bands for a whole long time and maybe I should have, I. I just forego the two 70 option, but maybe it's worth it. I'm skeptical. I've seen this people posting about this on Twitter more recently, too, that you don't need big terms at all in the deck. And I always really liked the big terms or at least I always feel safe if I can find one and put it on the ADP really early. Like, I feel really safe in a lot of matchups when I can do that.

Mike:

It is really big in the alternatives matchup. I was just looking at my notes. I did pretty well with the term dentist in general, and one of my losses was to an ADP because they got the big charm on the second turn or whatever. And if they didn't get big term, I would have. KOD ADP before they ultimately raid. And I probably would've won that game, but since I had a two shot it, then I lost.

Brent:

I assume the. Uh, ultimate rate is, or the, the big charm is also good in like the center scorch and like any fire matchup, although vitality band's good for killing rushes,

Brit:

I think it's good in the set of scorch math trope. It just makes them, they have to find, um, an extra energy. They do play those executives and that's of course as well. So they have to do one or the other, um, which often they have it, but still that's just an extra step you force them to do. And the time they have it, you probably, when the time they don't have it rather,

Brent:

it just seems like it's easier to get, like getting a seventh fire on a sentence. Gorge is like a little harder, right? Like, like, I, I actually think, I mean, in my mind, I mean, I haven't played that many games with it, but in my mind it seems like going from six to seven is actually a hard thing for that day.

Mike:

well, so let's think great. You get three from Belconnen and you get two from a welder. So you need So to get to six, you need one attachment. On either turn and the seventh, you need both attachments. Yeah. That's, that's pretty significant, I think. And it also means that you need a welder for too. It's just finding the energy. That's like the hardest part.

Brit:

Yeah. There's so many just kind of like small checks for some of the, that it's like really easy just to like slightly disrupt them the whole way. Um, and those games are manageable, but then those times where you just don't do anything, you just can't lose. So some games like. Not only like you don't get the turn one swell or something like that. So satin scores just has like hearth the whole game. And then they, the games that they get like a welder turn one and Volcani on like, We just, you just really can't lose those because you typically have like a huge hand afterwards and then your next welder is even easier to find. Like, I was the, the keys I played as seven scorch and against center scorch. So many of the games was felt over like almost immediately, like just lots of, kind of checkmate or scenarios from the way the first game. Can play, but, uh, I never really minded playing it as the ADP player. I know Senator scorch players like typically talk like they're favored in the matchup, um, and not to discredit them or even really try to dispute them. But, um, it's really pretty close. I think ADP is pretty 50, 50 against most match-ups I read through Isaiah's channel fireball article today. Um, and. He, he, he had some interesting takes on kind of the matchup spread too. Um, that definitely was a little different than I tend to see people talk about the deck, but, um,

Mike:

Just a quick comment on that. Yeah. I read through that too. I pretty much disagreed with almost every match that he put on peek around. Uh, I was like, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. So that was funny. I didn't, I don't remember looking at the ADP spread too detailed, but yeah, the peak one, I. Disagree with a lot of stuff.

Brent:

Yeah. So, so let let's go. Let's offer people a definitive perspective on like the tools we would use in, in ADP. Like, so Isaiah in the channel fireball article, he says the argument for vitality bands is kills ratios arts, and kills me too, which is. A good argument. Uh, um, and obviously like, so he tweeted that, you know, he, he started playing last night and he got 13 points in five keys and then John and played the same list and got like 105 points in 50 keys. So, so obviously like that's good. The Hexter winning list from, uh, this past week played one air balloon, no other tools.

Brit:

Or a random phone, right?

Brent:

Deeply for Vodafone. That's obviously new, a new best matter, uh,

Brit:

kind of, I think just what we've been frustrated about with ADP lists the whole time. Like it's not the good players playing ADP that I think is a frustrating loss. It's. The random player who's playing like turbo patches and crushing hammers and Pokemon catchers and their lists. Like I remember actually I played against that person and players cup, two keys that I remember. I was just like, what, how, how do you, how do you do anything is draw really well with the Denning, I guess. Um, but yeah, it's, it's like that the deck is just so powerful that you in concept the way it works is so powerful that you can just play just a junk, you can play poorly even. So a lot of the time and just win. And that's, I think always been the main frustration about the deck more than, um, you know, it'd being quote unquote, like broken or not. It's just kind of, it's a frustrating way to lose often. It's not like a dynamic way. To play, but I guess most of the decks are kind of like that anyways.

Brent:

Right. Right. So Dan Perez at a top four list that played two big charms, two air balloons. Rosario's zero eight one eight at the GG tour tour. Chill tops that top 16 with Alyssa played one big charm, one air balloon. And then Hexter season three, a family 78 had a top four list. They played two big charms, two air balloons. What's the right answer.

Mike:

All right. Well, you have to play to air balloon.

Brent:

Yeah.

Mike:

Like, that's not

Brent:

were balloons wrong, right?

Mike:

You have to play to everyone. That's like never a debate. Um,

Brit:

I like my tools. I feel that is also kind of an old, an old school tendency speaking. I just like, like to have lots of tools and stuff too. So I've always been even in, even in peak around, um, I've tried to fit two and two a lot of the time too, but I think I played. Um, I guess, because I started with Isaiah's list and it has the two vitality there. I started there and just eventually changed them to big charms, but I would play too. I liked big term, you know, I know the article says you don't really need them and Twitter. I was like, I can't remember who it was, but I saw a meme or something about bad cards. People play in ADP lists and it was one of them that I was like, what? Now? I like that card.

Mike:

Yeah, I go back and forth. I mean, if you guys remember the ADP lists that I played for players cup two played one of each like one big charm. One vitality band, um, which is fine too, but it's like, I think you got to kind of commit one way or the other. I think that's better just to consume more consistently find which one. I mean, I don't think either is wrong. I think it's more just. Based on what you feel like you want to beat a little bit better. Like vitality bands are better against Pika and a blouse, or I dunno, I think against the fire decks, they're a wash. Like you can make arguments for both of them. Um, vitality bands are significantly better against Pika. Um, and big

Brit:

he references it in the article as why the Blanton's matchup is so good because he, because they'll go chart. First, but whereas I would, he, his, his, his line of reasoning is that they, because they always go Charles ARD first I have vitality ban. Therefore it's a better match up for me. Whereas, and that's true. I guess, I guess he was talking about for keys. So you don't have open necklace. I was just saying, well, if it's open necklace, I'm sure you would just see the vitality ban and probably not mess with your turns hard.

Mike:

Right. Exactly. Yeah. And the big charm, if they don't go, chars are right. If they go bless Epsilon, the big charm is much better. Right. Cause it forced them to have that extra energy to kill the ADP. Um, or you can put the big trim on it to DNA. So they can't crammer ant it like big charm is pretty strong in the, in the fire match-ups too. Um,

Brent:

I feel like in the fire matchups, I played, they had a hard time getting to their ratios are like, they were like, well, you know, I got a welder to, to like draw cards to find this rescues art, and I've got to. Well Cephalon or a crammer on the board. So I'm going to welder to that. And like, instantly I was like, well, what am I going to do with this band, man?

Mike:

Yeah, it's true. Um, the other thing, like, well, the other argument against the big charm. Against rachis ARD is that all of those decks are also playing it's again. Right. So they can, they can do 300 plus the goon as well. Um, so that's an argument against big term, but I don't know. I would PR I think personal.

Brent:

guess it is worth pointing out. We said, we said, uh, that dangerous Rogan is Hexter winning list. Didn't play any tools, but, uh, besides the one air balloon, but he was playing the six ago.

Mike:

Okay. So there's executing is pretty similar. That's like the same as playing band, right?

Brit:

tested the zigzagging and. Again, bench space is certainly difficult and I don't think you could play like the Oreo choreo or anger room and things like that anymore, if you're committed to the executive. But I always thought in Isaiah addresses this too in his article that. You know, I think, I think his rationale is just that the vent space is too much of an issue, but I just always feel like, you know, with these tools and that's always where I try to talk people out of only playing one tool. I was like, what's the point of just playing one. So you're going to draw it when you need it. Like sounds great. But like, what else are you planning? And that's the way exactly like what Mike is talking about. Like, I agree. I think you have to commit the, you know, and things like that too, but. And just seems like, I think to that, The arguments were like, you don't want big charm and ADP, like only work in these ideal scenarios where you just always get altar on your first turn and always boss, boss, and then had like, yeah, sure. You don't need to live through the match of us. But I think really what I like about big charm is what is the smaller players, what it's able to do on the DNAs. That is just these really, these really, really minute plays that the average player might not recognize. And I think that's really where the card. Can shine. And that's why I like it. I just like being able well to, you know, not losing it the game because I can put it on to Denny and that's like the crammer and players out against me or something like that. I like that sort of option. Whereas the vitality band is just like useless. Um, yeah. Side of the match-ups where it's taking the extra prizes for you. Whereas big term is like, Even when you're doing nothing, it might save the day and might be the difference and giving you another Intrepid sword or something to draw the game or to draw out of a dead hand.

Mike:

Yup. Um, so I'm just trying to think of like other, match-ups try to compare the tools. So like verse Luke metal, um, big term is nice because it prevents your ins from getting one shot by there's Accion's. But vitality bands also not bad either because vitality ban on the ADP does one 90 now. And so after a full metal plus metal goggles, you're doing one 30. And so two, one thirties to hit cares or Luke metal instead of a three shouting it. So that can be relevant. I'd say probably big. Trump has a slight edge in that matchup, but it, but it's pretty close by Taliban has some nice stuff. The big charm is not. Like, it's nice, but it's not super great just because Luke metal plays scrapper. So like, you know, if they go to 20 on his Accion with a big charm and then they scrap her at like a couple of turns later, that's really bad. And like you're in a pretty bad spot if that it happens. Um, so we talked about the peak. Imagine we talked about Luke metal. Turnitin is obviously a big term is better. The fire decks. What else is there? Um,

Brent:

There's nothing else.

Mike:

Um,

Brit:

think it's relevant against decidua or something. Just treat them for reasons. We've said like just extra damage,

Mike:

yeah. Uh, the mirror match big charm is way better, right? Big Trump's way better in the mirror match. It's not even close. Like you, you get to put it on DNAs too, or CRO bats so that they can't get ultimate raid. You can put it on, I don't know. It's ashy and it doesn't make a difference. But it can make a difference early on, maybe cause there's some times where you like, just like throw his machine into his Ashton before you GX. Um, but yeah, I mean like that vitality mint does absolutely nothing in the mirrors. That'd be, Trump has to be better. Okay.

Brent:

So let's talk about Manuel for a second. Speaking of a decision, why? Uh, um, so I recognize the Isaiah and John enlist. The fan P uh, 78 list that did well. And, uh, the Hexter season three tournament there, they were believers in the two mile while strategy, all the other lists that did well, uh, uh, played the one mile while one edge of slash should be. Can we agree? Each line should be a bad card.

Mike:

He just asks me sucks. Definitely don't play that.

Brent:

Like, like I looked at that and I think, why wouldn't you just play the second mile while? Cause at least like, The the second model while has utility and other match-ups and the agent's lives should be is just this really bad card that does this one thing, right? I mean, I'm not missing anything am I guess.

Mike:

That is a hundred percent. Yeah. If you're going to use that spot for an age slash just put a second mile while the real question is, is it worth the spot for the second mile while, but like definitely don't play age slash.

Brent:

So, so let's talk about whether or not, uh, second mile while it's a good idea. Did you find anything in, uh, in all these games that you played?

Brit:

I never actually played any games with two mile Wiles. I've always. I've never traded for the second one. So it's just always been my little freebie. I used to always do this in deck lists. So I would play town map. Um, obviously some decks, more recently required town map, but for awhile, a long time people would, it was just, they would just play it

Brent:

Those are a European thing to do. If you were a Schultz brother, you were like, like how to play town map. Otherwise I'm not being really European.

Brit:

It was even before you had to use it in Virgin to get your G booster, people are just like, Hey, why not? And I was always so excited when I would get a deck list with it. Cause I was like, yes, I get to

Mike:

a free spot.

Brit:

want. Like, it would be great because it had just want to, you know, it had just want to cities or something and I would just be able to fit in one more tech instead, like, I'd get a

Brent:

59 card list. That's good. So.

Mike:

know, the only, the only bag I ever played, 10 Mappin was night March. And like one or two tournament. It was pretty good, but yeah, it could always be something else anyway. Um,

Brent:

Yeah. I think, I think it turned out. It was like just good enough in these decks that go really, really fast that like you could play it or not play it.

Mike:

yeah.

Brit:

it was like a little maybe before you had, um, The special charge like that. I think you had to be, your energies were different and maybe you're even playing a basic energy then. And so I think you had to find your double color lists.

Mike:

yep. Yeah, the tournament I'm thinking of was right before special charge came out. So that

Brit:

Yeah. And before puzzle, too. So you were, you were a little more limited in that way as well.

Mike:

Yeah. Um, so I played to my while a bunch. Like in a players cup too, like after players cup two, but before, or they're like the double elimination tournament I've messed around with two mile Wiles. I messed around with three mile Wiles, um, and a surprise box, like a really just kind of like experimented with that concept. Um, and I think too, my wife was okay. Yeah. I don't hate it, but I don't, I don't love it. It's just like, it really goes back to the bench space issue. Like there's almost no. Games where you're going to be able to drop two mile while. Um, and so at that point you're really playing it for the decidual. I match up almost exclusively. Um, and I just feel like you can often win enough with just the one mile while, because you can usually grab one. You can always grab one and usually you can grab two knockouts before they have this. They're like a lone decidual I up. And then you really just need one knockout most of the time. So what you do is you just let them. Like you just try to manipulate it. So they draw, draw five prizes in a turn. Um, at very, at the very least they can draw, though, they're going to have to draw three. You just send up the ADP, you let them kill it, but maybe you're able to manipulate it so that they draw five in one turn. And then on that turn, that's when you model, um, because they don't have time to like quick ball or get stuff away. So, and you just kinda, you gotta hope and pray that, you know, they've prized a basic and one of those three or five price cards, but like, I don't know most of the time that works out. Um, and in the process, they're still drawing cards, right? So all that time leading up to them because they don't do a lot of damage. So it's like, you know, three, four, five, six turns of drawing cards. Um, and if they're not actively getting rid of the basics, you just hit them. Like they have a big hand, plus all these extra price cards. Most of the time you hit a basic there.

Brent:

So, so teach me how to play guys. I mean, one of the questions that I, I, that like one of the situations I find myself coming into a lot of times playing ADP is I, I find my wild, like I'm going first or even I'm going second. And like, I find my wild in my opening hand and I have the option to either kind of start running out of bench space or dump it, like. Do you guys have any, uh, I recognize that's a very big problem description, but you have, you have like a hot take on what you do in those situations. I'm sure you guys have had situations where you're like, well, I have this Manuel in my opening hand and the DNA, I'm either going to do this thing or not do this thing.

Brit:

I think it depends on the matchup, um, and their hand size, things like that. Um, certain match-ups like, um, like in the mirror, I probably would just do it because in the mirror, like you can't really not limit your two pricers because you're going to need stations. Presumably. So the, it probably isn't going to matter if you have to and Amal while on your bench. Um, Whereas in some other match-ups that could potentially lose you the game. So I would say it's, it's going to depend. Um, but yeah, I have, I've learned, and I think practicing that the kind of the, the Yolo, like turn one model while this isn't as, as sort of great as it sounds sometimes I think you, and if you play too, I think that's sort of the luxury you get there. Cause you, you can, you can. You can do both. Um, but when you, when you play one, I think, yeah, you really have to save it if you can. And obviously that doesn't apply here, but, you know, playing it just for the heck of it, or trying to say that when they've just taken three prizes or after you Marnie them or something, like, I think that, um, that's sort of, you have to mow Isles best when you can time it, rather than just kind of rolling the dice. Um, but yeah, I think I would usually in those scenarios describe, I would probably go for it, but it's going to depend on the matchup.

Mike:

Yeah, I generally agree. Um, if I'm planning as a deck that runs, you know, a bunch of DNAs or curl bets, which is most decks, you know, peek around or, um, send a scorch or mirror, uh, then I would then I'd probably play it and just go for it. Um, Some match-ups that immediately come to mind that I wouldn't play it in is like Luke metal. Definitely. Wouldn't there's no point there. Um, well, Stefan probably not either because they just generally play the one today. One CRO bat. Um, probably not worth it. Those are the two matchups that immediately immediately come to mind that I wouldn't drop it, but almost every other one I probably would. Um, well, I was also a pretty good attacker. Like there's lots of times where, especially against tag teams, if you're not playing vitality band in particular, um, where you have to hit a tag team. And then my wife was much easier to use to clean up than as Asha units. So.

Brent:

So, so when you talk about timing at Britt, like, are there, uh, I don't know if we have to kind of grind through match up by match up, but like, are there things you look for that tell you, like now's the time or is it, is it really, really situational?

Brit:

I mean, this is sort of what I described, like did say they just took three or even four prizes in their hands. Really big, like stuff like that after the Marni maybe, or like sometimes too, like the it'll always looks really good on the second turn. Say they'll, they'll have played their supporter and their draw Pokemon for the turn and. You know, it's send a scorcher or something and they have volcano in the active, they've got everything they needed, but they only have like a two or three card hand. And sometimes you can unlucky and they have it's a ball and they were wise to wait, but sometimes, um, they're just gonna Crow bat, first thing, or Dennis first thing on their next turn, no matter what, and you get it. And they're just. They're drawing debt immediately. So those sorts of scenarios, you can kind of spot, but it's harder. It's more so when you can just, um, check them yourself or do something yourself sometimes like, um, yeah, I guess rarely cause you don't have very much access to Marnie as the ADP players and to play one and you're probably not going to get it with elder GOs. Uh, it's probably. You probably just have to try to time it, I think with a big knockout or something like that.

Brent:

Yeah, I, I think. You you, the way you described it, almost hit the nail on the head of my like suckiness. Like I guess there's the moral, moral of the story with like, kind of skill-based cards, but I'm like, well, I want to use it when he has a small hand size, because like, maybe the data is the only thing in his hand, I'm going to ruin him and he's going to draw that for a long time, but I also want to use it when he has a big hand size, because like, like, so I'm like, so basically I just want to use it all the time. All right.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. The other, the other thing worth noting is that while it can still be strong, even if you're not hitting the DNAs and Crow bats, um, just. To fill up their bench like against us. Uh, tennis courts is a really good example that sometimes has a tough time managing their bench. And so if you're able to just, you know, put he down or like an extra center score or an extra Geraci, um, that they just don't really want on their bench. That's really annoying for them because then they, maybe they can't play the Dennett later because their bench is full

Brent:

so, so, uh, all right. So I think we've done a good job talking about malware. Do we have like a professional opinion on the three versus four stations?

Brit:

I've played three and always thought it was fine and I've played four. And. Didn't notice. And I just don't know how much of that was poor variants or what, because I think the logic is there, like his logic isn't wrong and why you would want for like, yeah, you wanna, you want it on your first turn every game. Cause you need to interpret it after you attached to ADP, but I definitely mess with it some more. Um, United stone, like ADP all that much to laugh it out. Like I would some of these other decks, but it seems right to me. I'm not really foaming at the mouth or anything to change it back to three, but I guess I'm really, really, I'm really in the middle. I'd say I could be swamped to go either way with a couple more games.

Mike:

yeah, I kind of agree. Um, I'd probably stick with four just because I think the consistency of ADP is. Lacking in general. So take any like small minute gain that you can. Um, I see more of an argument for like Maxine than I do Maxine Bolton and peek around, for example. Um, so I'm cool with four I'd probably stick with four. If I was playing more ADP.

Brent:

All right. Uh, let's talk about support Pokemon for a second. So the DNA's Crow bats, Elva GOs. Uh, I saw that, uh, Uh, some people, uh, and by some people, I mean, the guy that won a Hexter played a Wrangler Ru vampy 78 played Oranger roo as well. Uh, do we have, do we have any opinion on that stuff? I assume the answer is three data's. One CRO bet.

Mike:

Yeah, at least that the, the other thing that I've been thinking about is running three to DNA, to curl bat. Um, just gives you a little bit of options for like two huge dig turns. If you need it, like one maybe early on for the altered and then the second one early or later on to like maybe find a game winning boss. Um, I, the only thing in there that I. Our ringer has never really made any sense to me in this. Like yeah, sure. You get to like save some resources, but now you let your opponent Cayan, ADP K was actually gonna care ringer to win the game. And that's like a huge job ADP is that they have to go through ADP and then Tuesday Cassian's like, or at least as ashy and Denny. Um, and you might not think that there's a big difference between 120 and like hundred 60 HP on the DNA. But there is like, um, Pico has to use a ride shoot to kill it identity. They can't use full blitz. Um, it, I don't know. There's a pretty big difference there.

Brit:

Yeah, I would think I've thought about that too. Or at least I was really into the idea of. Three to deny and to Crow back when I was testing mad party a lot, and then similar rationale there. Um, but to me, like I really, really liked, I believe I've mentioned it last week, but I really liked, or a choreo. Um, and that that's just the second CRO bat or something to me. And maybe the second Courbet's still better. Um, I'm not entirely sure. Um, That you can't play another Chromat and, or chorea. So you'd have to draw your line there, but I really like, or choreo, and maybe, maybe it's a fluff card, not a necessarily inclusion, but it was the biggest standout of my list. I think it was just an all-star for me in the keys I played with it.

Brent:

I, I felt like Korea was good in the games I played as well. Or choreo, it's a good card. And it, like, it seems it's like a rang a Ru like, why would you play a Wrangler when you play or a chorea? And yet none of these live play on Korea.

Mike:

Yeah. I like our Korea too.

Brent:

All right. Let, let's talk about the energy line for a second. Cause I feel like that's the other thing that everybody is like,

Mike:

All over the place. Yeah.

Brent:

yeah. Right. So, so Isaiah Bradner, his list is three spinners, eight medals, two waters. Dangerous rugs. Hexter winning list was one spinner nine metals, three waters. Uh, the top four list from that tournament was two spinners, eight metals, three waters. the, uh, Rozario eighteens top 16 list from Gigi tour was a one spinner eight metal, three water. And then fan P 78 played two spinners, eight metal, three water.

Mike:

So I think, I think like the takeaway is 13 spots

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. That, yeah, there was, I think there was one guy that played 12, but 13 is like the right answer.

Mike:

Personally, I have been liking the eight three with two spinners the most, that is where I'm at. So that's kind of like the middle ground, right. Um, that, that's what I liked the most.

Brit:

that's also what I liked the most as well. Um, I believe, um, I started, it was just two water, but in three spinner and I, I. I think I just cut one for the other after, after getting hammered a timer too, too many, but that's always.

Brent:

So here's, what's interesting, right? Isaiah's commentary on that on in channel fireball is you want to make sure you attach a metal first. Cause like they might hammer you and then you got to do that thing. And like, my reaction to that was, man, I'm only playing eight. Like I should play nine.

Brit:

can you eat? I, I think that that might actually be something to talk out here. Is that right? Do you always play a metal first or is it that you play the metal first? If you don't have the water? What do you

Brent:

Like what's weird about that is if you've got the water in hand. Or you've got a spinner in hand. Are you saying you're going to use the spinner for metal or like.

Brit:

Yeah, because I mean, I know what he's saying, and there's definitely some reason there, but I've never played it like that. And that's what I, that's why I wanted to stop here and ask, because maybe I'm just wrong. But if I have to, I'm going to roll the dice on the water attachment every time. If I can. I feel like I only attached to them that when I don't get to the water or maybe.

Brent:

Well, and usually you're attaching it before, you know, if the other guy plays hammers in a closed list tournament, right. We're playing keys. Like it's turn one for you. Or it's right. Like, you don't know if he's playing hammers or not.

Brit:

I keep forgetting that the

Brent:

I usually special.

Brit:

about keys. I need to put myself in only thinking about closed necklace kind of mindset, but yeah, I think putting it into those terms, like Brenda said, yeah, definitely seems like you should still just.

Mike:

if I, if I, so like, if, if, if I'm enclosed, if I'm going first closed necklace and my opponent flips over a Bolton, I'm attaching metal every single time. Um, So if I cause like peak almost always play his hammer. So if I have a good reason to expect that they would play hammer is really the only thing. Like if, if I, if they're playing ADP, probably wouldn't I like Pika is the only deck that I know is like 95% sure going to be playing hammer. So I'm like, Oh, it was attaching metal there. Um, I probably attach water otherwise. Yeah, I think I agree with you guys. Um, but if like, if it's opened necklace, I been there playing hammer just, you're always attaching metal.

Brent:

All right. All right. So let, let me, let me give you a. Uh, scenario, uh, uh, Mike, you've got, uh, you're, you're going first. You've got a spinner and a data in hand. You, are you going to spinner for metal attached to the metal or are you going to just like throw the spinner away? Like

Mike:

And what are they? They're like, they start like a dinner or something like that. Okay. Um, and I'm always the dead end cause I don't have as Accion. Yeah. I am spending for water and attaching it.

Brent:

All right. And, and, and you're thinking you should definitely have like three waters cause it's risky. Right?

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, I guess that's the difference. Yeah, because I guess I'm saying this, even assuming, assuming that I'm playing three waters, um, I would attach water and, but even with three waters, I would S I would attach metal against like a peak of start, um, just to protect

Brent:

would spin or a metal and then, and then day-to-day, if you were, if it was like, if they started Bolton or a peek around, right.

Mike:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah,

Brent:

All right. All right. Good, good, good. Let's see. Is there any other stuff that we should talk about in the context of like these things? So, you know, the morning counts, varied wildly. There was like, uh, but, uh, obviously Isaiah's Isaiah's list is playing one. Uh, the dangerous road guy, uh, was playing too. Dan Perez was playing one in the Leon. Now, maybe that maybe this is this Leon code for like, just because I played big charms doesn't mean I don't want to kill me in twos.

Mike:

I have no re I, I see no reason why you would ever play Leon over 60 goon or vitality band. Like if you want a searchable one, if you want a searchable plays, execute like Leon searchable in a sense because of LD gas. Right. But just plays exit. Good. And then, um,

Brit:

Leon it's bad. I was really, I was really high on Leon for the first couple of days of vivid voltage. I was really convinced it was going to be a staple in a couple of decks and it's bad. Don't play it. I promise.

Brent:

I mean, 10 is really all you need to get to the numbers you're trying to get to. Right. Does it again, it seems like it would be more than good enough in all those situations.

Mike:

We don't seem to really bad. Um,

Brent:

Rosario's play at Rosario's eight 18 played three Marnie's and then vampy 78. Played two Marnie's Leon.

Brit:

I think heavy Marnie belt could be good. I think, I think it's a different version. I think you maybe play it like peaker Rome, where you only play two to deny in one curl bat, but Marnie is just such a good card. Um, Having been, been victimized by it too many times. Like, it's just, it has that possibility at all times the ability just to break you're upon it, but then it's just so useful fire decks and things like that. That I think, I think you've got enough kind of built in draw already with your heavy part c'mon that you can, you can afford to play some extra. I remember, I know when I play the ADP, like, um, with the one Marnie in the list, that games where you like. Hit the tempo, Marnie, like you're playing your one Marnie at a good time. It feels really good. And you know, if that's the case, then it probably feels good each time you play the Marnie. So maybe more than one, Marty wouldn't be so bad, but I think I have a three or four Marnie version might be worth experimenting with, but I think I would like to go back to two in my own list. I think I just like having supporters. I hate losing games by not doing anything.

Mike:

Yeah, I agree. I'd be interested actually in kind of, we talked a little bit about like that heavy metal build. That's a little bit slower. So I wonder if like that might be good with the three or four

Brit:

yeah, that, that definitely seems like there would be some synergy between the ideas there.

Brent:

Yeah. Uh, that's uh, you know, the, obviously the nice thing about judges it's somewhere in between, uh, like, you know, it's not an end, but like it's kind of an, and I mean, there's definitely, I understand like the. The like archetype of ADP is like, you just want to go fast. You want to go really fast. And the game in three turns. But I mean, when, when they get a little bit of tempo and like take a knockout on your ADP, the opportunity to set their hand size low, like you really want to set their hand size low, you know? And like, it probably doesn't make enough sense for me to try to figure out how to squeeze stamps into this list. But Marni Marnie is really good. It's like a stamp. That's not quite as good as a stamp, but like, Good.

Mike:

it was good. And it's better than Jack. Just definitely been in the judge.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that's you, you, they, they get judged and you get an extra card

Mike:

Yeah. And the card's gone on the bottom of the deck. It's sometimes so annoying to deal with.

Brit:

It's just kind of unfair in a different way that they're in at least in a way that's different from your typical like shuffle draw in fairness, like there's just less, like, it's less than your favor, I guess. Like in certain scenarios, there's scenarios where you have the cards you want in your hand, you're just, you don't have any way to get them. I know, like, I, I know. I can think of a handful of times where I was like into one, into the double color, listen anyways for games, you know, that that stuff happens. And of course it happens with stamps still, too, but you just don't get that possibility to like, maybe be okay to Marnie, Marnie, just those cards are gone, but then obviously too, sometimes it's yes, these cards regardless, I needed none of these cards. Let's see the next four. There might be that switch. I was looking for things like

Brent:

I, I just, I just like from a car design perspective, anytime they, they, uh, make it, so there's less shuffling. I remember that Kenny wisdom, six prizes article, where he was like, you know, why does our game have so much shuffling than other games? Don't like, you're just shuffling all the time. As idea of just put on the bottom of the deck and draw some cards. It's like, like it, theoretically should shave like a minute off of games compared to like a judge. That's good.

Mike:

That is true. I don't think I just, just before we move on, I just, I don't think people, I don't know how much people think about like the difference between Marnie when they're playing. Um, cause really is a big difference. Like there's so many times where like, let's say I liked the car or regardless of, I liked the cars that I had in my hand and then I get need. And then, you know, my next hand, I have a quick ball and I have a research sometimes it's. Correct to quick ball and shuffled the deck and whatnot, but sometimes even to like thin a Pokemon out of your deck with the quick ball. Sometimes it's not even worth it because if you don't want those, you know, six cards that just went to the bottom, it's just worth it to research. Not, not, uh, take a card out of the deck to your, your odds are way better. If you just draw a straight seven rather than shuffle at first, um, to like draw that switch or whatever. Um, and I don't know how much people think about that. Um, I'm sure that they do, but like, I don't hear people talk about it maybe because it's such a small thing, but I don't know. That's just something for people to think about more.

Brent:

Yeah, I'll give you my hot take. I think people don't think about it because we play with the PTC geo client. And if you were like at a tournament and you were putting the cards on the bottom of the deck, you feel differently about it. Like, it'd be a little more visceral.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes

Brent:

Like what I play on PTC, Joe. I mean, I have to be honest. I don't even think about it. It's all just shuffles itself. Let's go. It took my hand and gave me new cards.

Mike:

Yeah. Well, and it's so different to think about too, from anything else. Like we're just so used to being like, all right, I'll ultra bald, thin a card out of my deck and my odds have gone up to dry and what I need, but it's different with Marnie.

Brent:

Fun times. All right. Let's talk about the ups for a second. So we can say, we really, really talked about, uh, everything ADP. Um, are there any match-ups where you want to go second?

Mike:

Um, so let's go w going down this list, uh, Turnitin, this is really interesting. Like as the alternatives player, I want to go second. I think, um, Especially if I know they don't play big germs.

Brent:

Uh, you know, I think one of the interesting things about our metal, we haven't really talked about this, but I've been thinking it is. I feel like if you look at basically all these decks that are not ADP. You kind of want to go second and that's how those, these X became kind of viable.

Mike:

yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Because inherently ADP wants to go first, but if all of these other decks want to go second, maybe ADP wants to go say it again.

Brent:

Right? Right. Okay.

Mike:

I don't think it's worth going second against peaker. Um, Because they can, they can still get a turn to attack off. And like, if you go second and you miss altered, and then they get like a turn to attack, like you're pretty behind. Um, so I think you still go first against Pika. Um, a turn, like I think you will probably always go second against that discourage. I don't know, Brett, maybe, you know, more about that.

Brit:

No, that was always such a terrible feeling when you win the coin flip. Yes, I get to go first and then they flip over the Volcani on, on you. Um, I thought about that a lot and. I think actually, you know, I'm going to, I don't ever feel as qualified, so I'm not sure what, like Isaiah or John, these more competent ADP players would say, but I honestly think that you want to go, you have to go second again, send a scorch as the ADP player, because that those are the games you just can't win are like. You can maybe get a Dacian and just kind of ignore altar creation and try to down what they all Canyon too. But if they, if they can, one-shot your, um, Your guy, your RCS, um, you just lose it, especially you, even if it's through, even if you have the big term, sometimes they're able to do it and there's just nothing you can do in those scenarios. And those scenarios basically only happen when they get Volcani in. So I think you have to go second in that

Brent:

So close list tournament. What do you do? Like were there times that you chose to go second playing keys?

Mike:

No, I think you have to always go first when you're playing keys.

Brent:

Yeah.

Mike:

Um, yeah, that makes sense. I actually hadn't thought about, if you do go first against Senator scorch, I think that's probably always your, like the idea of play is to try and like boss Kao there send a score to the Xhosa and right. That's I mean, like, it doesn't probably happen that often, but. Like, that's probably what you should go for.

Brent:

Right. I bet. I think I told you guys last week, I, I successfully did that and then he absolutely

Mike:

yeah.

Brent:

demolished me and I was like, ah, man.

Brit:

I haven't done that before, and then they just eat around me and I'm still loose.

Brent:

Exactly exactly. He like, he just like dropped down here and immediately like double welded to it and bodied me. And I was like, really your, your, your, your, you know, your new energy on the board. You had no attacking Pokemon on the board. You rely on welders for like all your draw. What is this madness? So unfair. So unfair.

Mike:

Yeah, so, okay. So I think the easy ones stuck about LMC. You always go first ADP, you obviously, you just got a first Pika. We said we still probably go first. Um, Blawnde I think you still go first again to blondes. Um, a little more debatable, but I don't think it's as bad as center scorch, I think going versus still. Right. So alternatice, I think is such an interesting one. Um, because, so from the alternatives perspective, when it turned to us, wants to do is they want to hit your ADP for 30 damage going second and attached to a bench guy. Like that's what they want to do. Um, And by doing that, they make it much easier to one shot the ADP, the following turn. So if you go first as ADP, you want to do everything in your power to not leave an ADP active, um, for that. And so going first is fine. Now, if you go second as ADP, they can't do that, but you're kind of under a lot of pressure to turn one altered because if you don't turn one altered, then. They're almost always going to kill the ADP, like right after you GX, even if you have big charm, because they'll probably like, unless yeah, yeah, right. They can just two-shot you then. Um, so it's weird. I think you still go first, but it turns to, it still wants to go second, which is weird.

Brent:

So, so guys, how much in, in playing this, like kind of, uh, Isaiah, uh, similar-ish list. How many times have you guys gotten the, like, uh, altered creation on your first turn? Like going second.

Mike:

Um, I haven't had that like recently. I can't think of any times.

Brent:

Yeah. Like, I feel like without the clays, like the deck's not quite as optimized or like the absolute bonkers.

Brit:

I never got it, which was another frustrating part of playing for energy switch, which I've usually never do. I usually have just always played three and I just, I would have to go for it. I cause some stuff, some games. You lose the coin flip. You just have to really, really dig for it. And I never got it. I was always a card, always one, one piece short, or I would always have two of the three pieces at the wrong time. And I would just have to discard them and hope to draw them in the right order the next time and things like that. But they're aunts I'm sure, but

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. That's I feel like I I've, I haven't played enough to feel like I have an opinion, absent variants. It's a little weird in that you like there's um, uh, if you're, if you're going to have to like data or something and you have that kind of spinner data situation, you have to kind of make some choices between grabbing a metal to throw away. To like, try to like tee up the sauce or play that, you know, you're going to need versus like grabbing the water and getting it attached, knowing I'm about to throw away the spinner. If I don't find a water, like after I play this data, it's going to be tears for days, you know? I mean, it just goes to show how many pieces you need to pull it off. A hard thing to do. Uh, um, any other, uh, any other advice for playing in these match-ups or is it like. Hey, it's ADP guys. Just do the ADP thing.

Brit:

It's ADP, like I've kind of said about the sentence porch matchup is this feels true of a lot of them. They're just, you just can't as strong as you are. You you're really, your, your path to victory are pretty linear and they're just scenarios. They're just games where you just, you lose you, you don't get the alter on your second turn or something. You won't be able to win things like that. Like, so your games are kind of fast. I would say if there's a deck that does, that has. Pretty minimal comeback potential. It's definitely ADP. So maybe you'll get through your keys a little bit faster, whereas Pikachu incentive, scorch, I think always have some possibility of making the stamp comeback.

Mike:

Yeah, that's the thing that's so interesting, right? Is that it has almost no comeback potential, but on the flip side, If it does what it wants to do. Other decks have no comeback potential against it. It's like a very, very polarized on either end.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. Should we, should we talk about other players cup three stuff, guys.

Mike:

yeah, we can talk a little bit. Um, I just want to say that LMC has been the, like, in terms of my stuff, peak has been okay. But LMC has been like the big winner. Um, One, two, three, four, five, six. I've played eight keys with LMC and I've won five out of the eight and got second at the rest. Yeah. So I have a lot of points where they key is with LMC and I've just been playing. I've just been taking the losses to fire. I don't play codings just 13 metals running the gears. Um, it's just like a straight, consistent version of it to beat everything that is not fire and scooped a fire. And it's been working pretty well.

Brit:

I really didn't play against too much fire then all 50. If my keys, I put the one against one blood Cephalon and probably less than 10, less than a even send scorches.

Mike:

The, uh, I've played as many stage two chars ARDS as I have

Brit:

Oh, I, I I've played, I played against a handful of stage two Charles ARDS as well, and just one blow Cephalon I just didn't even count it as the fire tech.

Mike:

There's um, there's actually been some cool just generally there's, I've played against some cool decks that if, if all three prizes were banned, some of these decks would be really interesting and quite good. Like I played against stage two blast, always just cool.

Brit:

The coolest tech I played against was it was a steal like stack that discards Pokemon with, for retreat.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Brit:

so I just, all these supporters just search Pokemon, like there's the Pocomania acts. And there was something else that it seemed, I almost, almost almost lost. I actually had to get pretty lucky to be at it as Pekichu, um, Like I had to lose to my stamp. Otherwise they would have beaten me, but it was, I mean, your deck saw Pokemon. It's like the chandelier deck. I just, I'm always just mystified. When that deck beats me,

Mike:

Yeah, I think I lost weight. Did I lose to a chandelier?

Brit:

I almost lost. I won in top four. I have a key, I think. And it's just,

Mike:

yeah, yeah, yeah. I almost lost as well. My note is that this was actually really close. LOL.

Brent:

Yeah, the chandelier deck, like it's, it's like if it gets like one or two attacks off, you're like all of a sudden there's like totally rolling. And you just know, like, they're just taking a knockout after not got up to knockout. Once they get a little bit of juice, right.

Mike:

Yeah. The, uh, the funniest loss that I had was definitely, I told you guys, but the peak at UV max that goes, that played so Valley G and they have no energy on the board just to peek at UV. I bolt into my MuTu and they go evolve to the VMX Rose two energies. So Valley dropped a five Pokemon catcher heads on my mute too, kill it. And I was like, Hmm, I guess I lost.

Brit:

I lost a son. I lost a, something with arose too. I'm trying to think of what it was, but I was, it was it's the same scenario. She's like,

Mike:

Yeah.

Brit:

Players cut babies. Just keep playing.

Mike:

yeah. Um, Bryant, I see that you put, Szymanski send

Brent:

I did not. I think,

Brit:

I put that. I know. Cause he just, he just

Brent:

we can talk about, yeah, Alex Szymanski is letting people know that like,

Mike:

so many points.

Brit:

it is less

Brent:

you got the average, like a good Julian point, the key,

Mike:

Yeah. There's no one that's going to pass him. There's no one that's even going to come close to him.

Brent:

uh, you know, so, so one of the interesting things that I wondered as I was pulling, like the ADP stuff is like, I was like, okay, John, and got 105 points playing ADP. And I was like, John is much better at Pokemon than me. Like at 105 points is like, that's probably over what you need to qualify, but like, it's not like that far over. It's not like Alex Szymanski over. Like, should, should you look at that and say, ADP, not a good deck, send scores, good deck. Like,

Mike:

Maybe, or at least, at least with the ability to, you know, show that like use your skills as a good player. Right. I think, yeah. Great. Where are you going to say about, um, the list? Yeah.

Brit:

Um, Oh, yeah, no, no. About the sentence purchase. It just wasn't as different. I thought it would maybe be, you mentioned in the discord that he played a small tournament with a parasol that was maybe, maybe we were wondering, cause at first he posted his, his results quite a several hours before the list went up. So I was just kind of thinking like, I was like, Oh, I wonder if he was still playing those the whole time. Um, things like that. And it's really just the. I think I see them kind of bickering about it over here and Twitter thread, those argumentative seventh scorch players. Um, it's really not all that different. It's just like two or three cards different from the I'm just going to call it the Twitter list, the cash one, Thomas Brophy, one that's been going around for a while now. Um, which isn't too surprising, but, um, I'm surprised. I just, like I said, my center scorch for, for a hot second, like. Was my best deck. And then it just did nothing on like my, my second to last day, I just, just bad start welder, less game after welder, less game. Um, but I don't know. He's just, he was a better player to be sure. So maybe that just really goes a long way. Like I wanted to play some escorts for longer than I did, but I just kept starting with the draw Pokemon and like to welder and no Pokemon. And then the next game, I would start like three energy, double heart. You know, this Pokemon or that Pokemon, blah, blah, blah. But I like sentence porch a lot as a deck. It's more, it's more enjoyable to me than ADP or alternatives. Certainly.

Mike:

Yeah, I haven't played watch centers, coach, but I played three games right before we started recording with Alex's list. So I think I'll probably play a couple of keys with it and just kind of generally. Test it out because I mean, that's impressive, man. That's a lot of points and so he's gotta be doing something right. And the deck must be pretty good. Um, the only two, like interesting inclusions. I think our, the, the stadium, the labyrinth, and, uh, the mallow Lana, um, he did play the Maulana when I played him in that, um, Atlas tournament and it was pretty good. Um, and I think it's just in general, really good again, to pick around because it gives you one extra out to paralyzing and it makes it so that it's much, much, much harder to, to shot the center scorch. Um, Sometimes it makes it impossible to, to shout center scorch. So that does seem quite good. Parasol was probably like a little overkill. Um, but the, uh, yeah, labyrinth seems

Brent:

playing the gears. Right? Like he's a really, really counting on like, just Geraci and draw. Well, right.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, most less recently haven't played gears, so that's, that's kind of standard, but. Yeah, I dunno, it seems good crammer. And it's also kind of an interesting inclusion. He basically has that over the great catcher, um, which when I asked him, after we played, I asked him about Krammer and for his great catcher. And he said that Kraemer is just better in every metric except against speaker on. So he just feels like Kramer has better overall. Plus it does give you the beat catch option, um, which can be good.

Brent:

So, so do you think after posting that, like, I, I, you know, we're going to see it. We're going to see a Metta shift in political three, and everybody's gonna be playing set of scorch now.

Mike:

Yeah, maybe a little bit, but I think, uh, not enough people are following the stuff on Twitter that in comparison to the amount of people that are playing, um, it does make me a little more scared to keep running. And Luke metal though.

Brit:

Yeah, that that is something I noticed kind of on that note that the, I think there's definitely a disconnect from like, Pokemon Twitter, the Pokemon community that's really active in the online community needs and the people playing the keys. Um, I guess cause with the online community is that you could just be playing with your friend's account or something, still your headstart stares. It doesn't have to be official. So maybe that's part of it too, but I just noticed such a tremendous drop in play for my, the opponents I played against, um, in my keys compared to my opponents in. The the Mo the weekly nightly tournaments, which, I mean, makes losing more frustrating, but just man, do you play some bad people

Mike:

Yeah,

Brit:

things, and they're playing real decks, like it's not. And in fact, there's the people playing these weird Jang, like steel IX type decks. I played against one or two other decks that I almost lost. You I'm blanking on what they were, but hopefully I'll remember, but those guys were much better than. These people and it's, it's always that too. It's always the ADP player that's playing like turbo patch that gives you the games. Cause they're terrible at these things like that too. Um, but yeah, I mean, I just, I thought that I was thinking that to myself just on, you know, maybe. You know, I, at least when we were talking about the, just like how difficult are these online tournaments are? You know, is it just a league cup or something? And, yeah, but like, I've been, I've tried to defend them a little bit more just because I think this, the variance is so hard. Um, but compared to players teas, then definitely, I feel like more maybe. A little more stock, but in winning these online events, at least the big cash ones I've noticed that, um, participation seems to have dropped off, which I think expectedly during this player's cup period,

Mike:

Yeah, I agree in general that like, yeah, the, the, the quality of play is significantly lower during these, which, so this kind of leads to a general tip. Don't concede, like don't concede games because. Your opponent can mess things up really easily for you. Um, I had one game that comes to mind in particular, I was playing Pika against center scorch. My opponent had game on board. He had enough energy that he could, he Tran and GX attack me and he had the heat Tran on his bench and he plays switch. And decides not to go into each Tran and win the game. And I, like, I had, like, I had the concede screen, like open and I hadn't clicked concede yet. And he messed up. He just didn't go into the heat Tran and I ended up winning that game. So like just don't concede, um, because, uh, it's really easy for people to make mistakes during these.

Brent:

PE people don't like the agony of like losing being drawn out. But, uh, uh, you know, you just rise up and wait 15 seconds.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

I know it's frustrating and sucky to like, have to painfully excrutiatingly watch yourself lose, but it's definitely, it's like always worth it. You know? Like the cost is minimal. Any other stuff we should talk about guys?

Mike:

I don't think so. I think we covered a bunch today.

Brit:

and I'm starting to say deck with Japanese lists of our next set, which hopefully people, people seem to be pretty jazzed about, um, um, cautiously optimistic, I suppose. Like I hope it will be good, but. I've seen some people kind of, some other players kind of talk about it. Like it'll definitely be great and I'm not, I'm certainly not that optimistic.

Brent:

Yeah.

Brit:

there'll be some interesting things. I just like seeing, I've always thought that Japanese players have this kind of as a fault in their deck building, they always seem to really favorite new cards compared to older cards. And I always felt that that's like why their results are skewed, because again, An archetype would always win a Japanese tournament. I always fall that's just because they were playing it. Not necessarily because it was good.

Brent:

Right, right. The, the, if 60% of people are playing it, it's bound to, uh, at the top.

Brit:

right. And so I'm seeing the, I don't know how to say it or Resha food or something like that. you know, it's winning tournament, winning necklace of it, which all have mostly comprised of new cards, which is interesting. Hopefully it will be powerful. I definitely think that. Um, one of them will be good. That's what you want.

Brent:

I mean, I know they bring a lot of fighting Pokemon, but people around will still be good. Cause it's always good.

Mike:

yeah, I've been saving the lists, like on my phone, just to like go back to. In a month or so. Um, so I've been seeing those two, but I don't really know what most of the cards do. Yeah.

Brit:

Yeah. I don't really know what any of the newer ones do I know at the Pokemon do and that's about it.

Brent:

Am Mike and I have to wait for the English translations.

Brit:

I can, I can. I mean, I'm always really, it's really only like phonetic reading, but in all my lessons and stuff, I can, the sat is like a and I can always, I can read it and the, the characters on it, which is always fun. I don't know, one day I'll translate.

Brent:

All right. Uh, so Mike, how many more keys do you have? Brett? You're completely done, right.

Mike:

So I'm 33 keys in and I have. The four points. So I have a lot of opportunity to do it.

Brent:

Yeah, not quite enough time to catch up with Alex, but you, you can put up some numbers. Well, where'd you end up Brit

Brit:

anyone. It was looking really, really good for most of the week and the last day or two, it was just a bit small.

Brent:

You pulled the, the John Ang nine key is nine points kind of thing.

Brit:

Yeah, no. And like too, I, I lost two. Um, I lost tone and tele on deck playing peaker rom in my like last year, my second to last key. And it was just, I got marinade and hammered and, you know, I just couldn't dry out of it. And it was just that, like, I almost, it was almost in tears. I just like. I have, I'm losing doing telly and on, like, I just don't know what to say, but I did better than the last time and was doing very well for a hot second. So maybe I'll figure it out for the next one. It's

Brent:

we know, do we know what the cutoff looks like right now? Like how are

Brit:

I haven't, I'm not paying attention at all. I

Brent:

all right,

Brit:

it'll be, it'll be similar enough.

Brent:

let's give it another week. And then we'll, somebody will probably have done that analysis.

Mike:

Yeah. The, uh, the person that I share my spreadsheet with is Ross. He is 10 keys in and has 40 points. He is one, one, two, three, four, five, six, like six or seven. He must've won six. He won six, got second at three. Yeah. And the top four, like he's just insane.

Brent:

When you get to the finals every time it takes a lot longer to play all your keys.

Mike:

Yeah. Right. This is also what happened last time though. He like, in his first half key is like, had an insane amount of points. And then his second half, he like got a bunch of top aides. So we'll see if, uh, that

Brit:

is he, is he playing bus Stefan still, or deck does Ross, like these days?

Mike:

It's still both Stefan. He's pretty much exclusively played at bla Cephalon since. August.

Brit:

seems to be what he does. He just learns one deck so I can focus on school and stuff as

Mike:

exactly. And he likes the spinner. He still likes spinner Blount. I think he runs three spinners and only like 14 or 15 energy.

Brent:

I mean, when you get six wins in your first 10 keys, why learn a different thing? It's like never punished, never punished. All right guys, until next week,

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

we'll see everybody on the flip side.

Mike:

Yup. See y'all

Brent:

Living the dream.

Mike:

all right. I'm going to go make dinner. Let's see you guys.

Brent:

Exactly the same, same, same here, guys. Take it easy.