Welcome to the Trashland podcast. It's the best podcast in the game because it's the only podcast about the Pokemon trading card game. Attendance is 133%, Mike, Liam, Caden, me, we are recording this so you can listen. If you have not left a 5 star review, you could leave a review, and if you left a review, even if it was not 5 stars, we would read it on the pod, and it would be incredible. Dragon Shield is our sponsor, they send us sleeves, it's amazing. We're gonna talk about three incredible things today. We're gonna talk about... The regionals that just took place in France. We're gonna talk about the regionals coming up in Toronto. And we're gonna talk about Mike's hot takes for the next format. And if we do all of those things, and keep it compact, because we just talked for like 10 minutes without me hitting the record button, then we'll be right on schedule! Alright, guys, let's, uh, we kicked off the conversation 10 minutes ago by talking about the Chen Pao list, and the conclusion for the Chen Pao list that was played to a top 4 finish by Owen Camerman is... It's
Kaden:Yeah, it's a Chen Pao list. It's a good Chen Pao list. It's basi it's, yeah. I mean, uh, any, like, I continue to say, any list that's like within 57, 58 cards of Cheren's world's list is a It's a pretty good, it's a good gem pile list.
Mike:Yeah. And one thing I didn't say before is like, I think Chien Pao is actually like pretty hard to play. Uh, Cheren keeps telling us that he thinks it's like a pretty difficult deck to sequence and whatnot. So not surprising that a really great player, uh, was the one to top four with it.
Kaden:I agree. I think it is a deceptively hard deck. It's one of those decks that like, it's one of those decks that when you play poorly, it's hard to recognize that you're playing poorly, but it just, like every wrong choice you made decreases your win percentage. So, at the end of the day, by the end of the game, you don't feel like you made any major mistake that like, lost you the game, but it's kind of just been like, you might have made a series, a bunch of micro mistakes throughout the game that just reduced your win percentage, so if you can play the deck optimally, um, I actually think it has It's one of, if not the best matchup spread in the game. That's my feeling about the deck.
Brent:coming in second at the little regionals is Switcher's Cologne, Lost Zone, Box. Um,
Mike:And as I said before, this is a Lost Zone deck that you can play. If you would like to. Uh, highlights are... Crossswitchers, Cologne, Ditto, Spiritomb, and Double Roxanne. So they cut like a lot of, uh, other pretty good cards to fit these cards. A switch card, an escape rope, they only played two nest balls, two vacuums, two sealstones, two stadiums. So, it's really taking the turbo out of turbo, um, and... Playing a little bit more techy of a build. The Cologne play is really just for the Mirror, presumably. Like, there's no way that you're gonna be able to hold enough cards in your hand versus something like Gardevoir, as they Iono you. So it's really just for Mirror. Um, but you're also giving up some percentage points against Mirror by being a little bit slower, by not playing a fourth Switch card for the healing. So, it's interesting. I'm sure it caught people off guard, and that was probably a big part of it. Um, and then we talked a little bit about Ditto as well, and like, is Ditto really worth it over the, just like, extra copies of Nessball? Maybe? Maybe not? I'm not too sure.
Liam:I'm a big fan of cards like that, like, I think it's a, it's pretty low cost to play. And it's a pretty large consistency bump. Like, I don't think there's a great argument that, like, whatever else you were going to do with card 60 is, like, you know, super duper good. Like, it goes to, like, 4th Nespo or, like, 3rd Vacuum or something like that. Like, I don't think you'd see, like, um, the same, like, noticeable impact on your games as you do with, like, Ditto. Which is, you know, started, I think 8 percent was the number. Um, and all those games go, like, significantly better.
Kaden:Yeah. Um, one thing I think it's important to note, you know, my belief about this meta has always been that this is an incredibly diverse meta with a bunch of pretty largely even decks. Um, that, kind of just you should, honestly, you should just play whatever you're most comfortable with and think you can pilot the best. And this, this belief has only been reaffirmed with these results as, um, all eight of the top eight decks from this past regionals, um, were different. Uh, the one that, you know, maybe you call them the same, DT Mew and a Fusion Mew. Um, I feel like those decks are very different, they have very different matchup spreads, but, um, their every single deck in the top 8 this past tournament was different. So, yeah. I feel like, you know, this gets a little bit into the Toronto, but, uh, and what you should do for Toronto, but, I think in this sort of meta, just play what you're comfortable with,
Brent:yeah,
Kaden:kind of even.
Brent:we realized we weren't recording as Caden was asking Liam about the stall decks that were played today too in France. Comfort decks, nothing like them.
Mike:Liam's comfort deck is Banette Gardevoir, so Liam, tell us about the Banette Gardevoir deck that got top 32, question mark?
Kaden:Yeah, top 32.
Liam:Yeah, uh, I said this before, I thought that list was really, really good. I, until I saw the stream match, I didn't quite, like, put the dots together. That instead of having to play Penny, you can just play the Binette, um, that Lost Stones itself, because that, that, that actually is a way to create a bench slot. Um, I'd only thought of it as, like, support or recovery, but that's a, that's a good way to create a bench slot. Um... When you need to create, like, space for, uh, Alakazam, which is really good. Um, what else was on that list? Uh, yeah, I guess the list was like, um, it was a lot more, like, attacking focused. Like, I think that string game showcased it really well, in that it was just looking to get, like, an early lead with Binette, and then finish off the game, um, by just, like, trading even with Shadow Rider and Mew EX. Mew EX is really, really good for the deck. Um, it gives... It gives you a psychic type attacker that is, or like, like, like an attacker that you can access that is able to take big one hit KOs. That's always been a really big problem for Binette because you don't play enough psychic energy to make good use of Arcana Gardevoir. And there's not a lot of other, like, splashable psychic attackers, at least pre, uh, Mew EX, that were able to take, like, big one hit KOs unconditionally. Like, Binette, um, if they played their hand all the way down, my list from Pittsburgh could only do 190, basically. Um, maybe a little bit more value to them. Um... So yeah, Mew EX makes the deck, like, much, much better. Um, the Banetta Recovered Supporter's pretty good. Uh, and the list was just overall, like, a very good list. Um, I really liked it. I don't think it's that good, though. Uh, it's... the Gardevoir matchup is still terrible. Like, you should lose to good Gardevoir players, like, pretty much every time. Um, and I...
Mike:you think, do you think the Shadow Rider Path combo is like, consistent enough to beat Lugia? Or is it just kind of like, turns an auto loss into like a 50 50?
Liam:no way that's happening. Like, you should be losing in best of three set, I think, just with that. Um, the Lugia matchup's not, like, terrible, though. Uh, like, that's just a matchup bump. And, like, even if you don't get it, you still have, like, some winning chances in the matchup. Like, that list isn't playing any energy suppression at all, so it's probably... Probably, actually, it's probably really, really bad for that list. You might be able to do, like, some tricks, like if they bench two Ttar, and they overcommit their single strikes, and you're able to, like, remove one of them. Um, but that's able to lock the other, because you unlock them out of urn, which is pretty cool. Um, and they don't have, like, a lot of great attackers. That's in the single strike matchup. The colorless matchup must be horrific as well, because it's jet energy and stuff. Um, yeah, it's probably no good against Lugia and um, Thanks for watching! Was it Gardevoir? You do take, like, much better matchups, though, than I'd say, like, compared to the rest of the meta, against Lostbox and Charizard. Those are, those are definitely good. Um, yeah, no, no Energy Special makes the Zard matchup a little bit worse, as well, though.
Kaden:Yeah, I'm looking at his matchups
Liam:It's also, it's also really good against Mew. It's really good against Mew. And Chentop.
Kaden:I'm looking at his matchups throughout the tournament. Looks like he faced... Yeah, he did not hit a Lugia until, um, around 15. And up until then, he hit 5 Zard, where he went 4 1. Um, 3 Guardi, where he went 2 1. He faced against, um, 2 Turbo Lost, which he 2 0'd both. A Chimpow that he beat, um, and then his ties were against a Meridon, a United Wings, and then, um, a Fusion
Liam:Yeah, the timing for the deck is bad. Fusion Mew has a little bit more energy, so I guess that's, like, worse, but... This should all be. Good matchups, I think, um, I don't really know what happened there. Um,
Mike:do you tie, how do you tie United Wings? Like you just, you just attack with Shadow Rider, you auto win.
Liam:uh, they play Dark Energy. Um,
Mike:really? Okay.
Liam:yeah, no, but, like, if you just boss the Curly up, like, you should, you should win. Or, like, yeah, and then you have, like, Alakazam. Like, I think that matchup should be really good. Um,
Kaden:Mew. Now,
Liam:but
Kaden:important question, Liam, although I guess this deck doesn't have any way to infinite loop, so you can't... I was gonna ask, um, thoughts on no Dreepy, but without any way to infinite loop, it doesn't, it wouldn't really make sense to run a Dreepy.
Liam:Yeah, 3P is like, it's fine. It's like, kind of tricky. It's good against Zord. But, you play him. Yeah.
Kaden:Now, now, I think the more important question, though, is do you think this deck should be running a Cleffa?
Liam:Um, was it playing Celebrations Mew, or no?
Kaden:Uh, it was not, no.
Liam:Uh, I'd say, um, You can probably get by without it, just because it's playing the Luminion. Um, so it gives you, like, way more apps to draw. Like, my apps to draw is I went Ultra Ball Cleffa. Um, everyone?
Kaden:Mm hmm.
Liam:The Luminion works as well. Um, I know I have Luminion, though, so it's fine. I guess Cleffa's a little bit better for me, because I wasn't playing the Steelstones in my Pittsburgh list. Um.
Mike:Alright Liam, yeah, what about the, were you gonna ask Caden about the Snorlax Pidgeot
Kaden:yes, I was.
Mike:Did you look at those lists, Liam? I mean, they're basically the same. I think there might be one or two cards off.
Liam:Yeah, uh, deck is really fun, like, I think it's like, it's one of the like, few control decks that I've played recently that actually feels like it slows every other deck down. Like, where like, you know, you can actually stop them from like attacking every turn until like, uh, you win the game. Like, they might miss attacks or something like that. It does, you know, like, in return, though, you lose the ability to attack and like... You know, uh, make progress like Reggie or like, um, torment locks or what you, you lose attacking options to make progress. So like your, your end game does become a little bit worse. Even if you do like buy time, you, you don't do as much with that time. Um, tech is like, so it's, it's fun. I don't, I don't think it's actually good. Like, I don't, I don't think you should be guardy. says you can, but like, I don't know what you do if they just like throw 5 energy on an Arcana Gardevoir and just start smacking. Like, I don't think there's actually like a real response to that. Um,
Mike:I feel like you just have to get lucky with, um, An Eraqus. Where it's like, oh, you Eraqus and hit their Manaphy or Ninja. Like, that's, that's it, right?
Liam:because of Iono, they can like, they get all their waters in their hand with like Ultra Ball and trade and stuff, and then they just, um, yeah, the Iono went to the bottom and they never see it the rest of the game. Oh,
Kaden:they can also just refine it, no?
Mike:No, no,
Liam:Echohorn,
Mike:Horn. Yeah, Horn.
Kaden:Oh, oh, duh, yeah. Mm.
Liam:But yeah, like, also Mirage Step makes it feel way worse as well, because now they run, like, way more than enough, um, Psychic types to fill their bench consistently. So, like, Erika's feels really hard to, to get, pull off. And they get, like, a full setup without drawing cards, like, incrementally. Like, they draw zero cards and then they draw six. It's like, um, so, like, yeah, Erika's feels really hard to pull off, uh, with Mirage Step. And then, yeah, you don't have, like, a great way of stopping them from taking KOs. So, like, people are, like... Say it's like okay, but if they like manage their energy well, like I can't see you ever winning that matchup.
Kaden:I'm looking at, I'm looking at their matchups. Um, it looks like lots of ties against Guardi. Um, looks like they, they just... They just decided to tie
Liam:Yeah, it was probably like the opponent like misplayed game one or something and then they lost game two and then they didn't like game three finish. Something like that. That's what I guess.
Kaden:yeah, um, yeah, they had a combined record of 2 0 2 against Garde.
Liam:Yeah.
Kaden:um, actually, no, two, two ties. The two ties were in late rounds. The two wins in early rounds.
Liam:Yeah.
Kaden:Alright, Toronto.
Brent:Here, just a second, I want to talk about, I want to talk about two other lists really quickly. Top four colorless Lugia. He runs Weirdeer, he runs Mew, he runs Luxray,
Mike:I think that's fine. Um, the 4 boss, we saw that from at least Charlie Kerr the week before. I think one of the other people also played 4 boss. Um. It seems like a lot of people are choosing between Luxray or Radiant Charizard, um, but you could play both as well. The, the big thing that I really like in this list is the fourth gift energy. All four of the Lugias that made top eight at Sacramento only played three gift, but like four gift just seems so good. Like, you just want to gift like every... Uh, so that, that's like my biggest thing when I look at this list.
Liam:Dude, I think the 1v guard is like a little sus, bro. I don't know. At least in my games it keeps coming up, like, any time I play the 1v guard, I'm like, oh man, like, I might be a little bad here. Oh, the 1v guard, like... You know, all my KOs just come so easy. Um,
Mike:What are you, what are you V guarding against in this meta? Like,
Liam:I, I, I don't know. Oh, I like... Alright, yeah, I guess it would be like Muse, Zoshens, um, Muse, Zoshens,
Mike:Mew, yeah Mew, Mew is, Mew's a really good point,
Liam:Um, yeah, I don't know, like, I, I don't, I don't play like, um, a ton of on meta stuff when I'm testing on live, so like, it might come up more than like it should, but yeah. I, I feel like it comes up a bunch. Um, but yeah, Forgift is really good as well. I think Forbost is also like a must, like at least in colorless Lugia, because you have to go like around stuff so often.
Mike:mm hmm,
Liam:and it also is like, uh, definitely like a big bump in the Gardevoir matchup. Okay, hold on. I just
Mike:yeah, very, that's like the, I mean like, as a Gardevoir player, I see the four gith, and I'm like, damn.
Liam:Yeah.
Brent:and I wanted to get your reaction to Fabian's Top 8 Guardi List.
Mike:I mean, it's like the same thing as most other Guardi lists, it's not too crazy, um, Champion Festival I think actually makes no sense at all, I don't, I don't really know why you would play that over... There's so many good stadiums you could play, like, uh, like League HQ or Second Collapsed or a Sinnoh all make more sense for sure than Champions Festival. Um, the Zinnias, I, like, I, initially, I think probably everyone, including myself, was like, that's obviously worse than a worker or research. Uh, but, I saw Fabian's Twitter post, he had, he had like a little thread today about
Brent:Yes, we wisely held off on recording the pod until he was able to tweet why he played
Mike:Yeah, and it actually has a lot of good reasoning to it. I don't think I would include it myself, but I don't, um, I don't judge him anymore for playing it. I think it, it, I, I, I see the merit for sure. Um, I still really like the, uh,
Liam:Research, bro. easily see it being better than Worker because I don't respect Path. I'd only play three Stadium Bumps. Um, but, yeah, that card is stinky research, dude. Especially if you're not playing the Luminian, like, I think
Mike:Yeah. That's the thing, like, Luminion's broken, dude. Like, how, uh, like, yeah. Like, I would not play Zinnias over a Luminion. Like, Luminion is so good, dude.
Liam:Yeah, I don't think I'd play Guardian without Luminian. Like, I think it's an addiction.
Mike:One thing I do agree with, though, is if I wanted to play four path outs, like two stadiums, the vacuum, and then something else, most people go for the Worker, but I think I would play, like, a third stadium. So I do agree with that concept. Um,
Liam:Worker actually feels so bad.
Mike:dude, Worker sucks. It's so bad. Like, actually, I was watching I was watching, uh, Brent Tonneson was on stream one of the rounds in Lil, and I think he was playing against Mew. I'd have to go back and check, but I think it was against Mew, and it was like a, a matchup where you would think that Worker would be really good. And I think game one, it was like, okay, Worker was fine, but game two, he opened Worker in his opening hand, and he just had to Worker for three cards, and it felt so bad, and I was like, imagine if this just drew him seven cards, he would just be able to play the game, and he just wasn't able to play the game because it drew him three cards instead of seven. So, uh, that, like, I saw that, and I was like, okay, to research, for sure.
Liam:Yeah,
Brent:Xenios. See, so if you had a Xenia in that situation, I assume the other guy went full bench because he's playing Mew, and he would have been like, now my hand looks like a rockstar, look at all these cards.
Liam:Yeah, Zinnia, I'd play Zinnia over Worker because I want to draw cards, but I'd play Research over Zinnia because I want to draw cards.
Brent:Is that, is that always correct? Like, I appreciated his comment that, like, uh, uh, you know, sometimes you have a piece in hand, and you're looking for the second piece, and in that way, like, playing a research feels bad, because you're like, well, I got this piece. And, and I recognize, like, I mean, it is, it is the year 2023, and you... Like, you're, the first chance you have to play a supporter, the other guy's already benched a lot of Pokemon because he played, like, his double battle VIP, and like, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, like, did this whole thing. Is Researcher's better?
Liam:Uh, yeah. Like,
Mike:mean research is insane. So like here, here's another argument for research. Like, the matchups that you're trying to play, that you want to play Worker in, like the reason you're playing Worker is for Path matchups, right? But, all the Path matchups also look to Judge you or Iono you. So, which card would you rather draw off Judge? Worker or Research? Like Research, for sure! Because you get to draw seven cards instead of three. So
Liam:yeah.
Mike:No, no, just like, so I feel like even in the matchups where Worker is good, like Research is often just better anyway. And then in the research, and in the matchups where Worker is not as, not good, Research is obviously better. So like, I don't know, that just like, is what makes sense to me.
Liam:Yeah, I, I also, one of the things in, um, that, like, uh, that thread was, like, four, four path bumps is a much, is a must. I, like, completely disagree. I, I think three is plenty. Like, as long as you don't draw. Um, like, two stadiums off of Joie J and Research, like, you're fine. Like, three is so many, especially because a lot of the, a lot of the path decks, like, I guess an exception would be, like, TTMU, um, but at least, like, Lost on Tina, like, Lost on Tina is, like, a matchup where it feels like you can literally go, you can lose, like, every single one of your stadium bumps but one, and as long as you just, like, bump, bump the path and then Iono, they never hit another stadium bump and they just, like, lose the game. Like... Yeah, like, a lot of the path decks, I think, just like, um, you just play Iono, and then they won't hit a path again, like, for Arceus and Tina. Um, so like, yeah, you don't really need that many stadium bumps. Like, you don't have to bump it every single
Mike:Yeah. So, I'm looking at his, uh, Brent's thing from Lil, and it clearly wasn't Mew, because he didn't play against a Mew. So I'd have to go back and see what, uh, what he played against on stream. But it was definitely a Path deck. Maybe it was, uh, maybe it was Tina? But I feel like he tied or lost, so maybe it was, maybe it was Round 3? Because he lost to a Tina Round 3. Hmm, I don't know, I'd have to go back and look. But it was definitely a deck with Path.
Brent:I just went to PTCG Legends to try to see if they gave me access to the streams, but apparently they just linked to the YouTube files instead of giving me a list of the streamed games. Those slackers at PTCG Legends.
Liam:turn.
Mike:Okay, it
Brent:All right,
Mike:It was Tina. I just looked up the, uh, yeah, it was the very first game that was streamed. Yes, it was Tina.
Brent:Steena? There we go. So, so, Mike, does any of this, uh, change you just playing, like, towards 60 at Tarantho?
Mike:Um, I mean, I'm gonna play probably 58 or 59, maybe 60 of the cards. I'm really just debating. Like, the real, I could see changing like one other card, but probably the only thing I'm debating is the, one of the stadium spots. Like, I'm definitely playing Vacuum, that card's really good. I'm definitely playing Collapsed, obviously that's very good. And so the question is, do I play Artisan, do I play Templar Sinnoh, do I play a League HQ? Um, I think all of those are pretty reasonable. Um, could play two League HQ, if I really wanted to go hard into Lost Box, but I don't. I don't know what I would drop for a fourth stadium. Could run like Sinnoh and League HQ. But like again, I don't know what I would drop like Every other card is, is really, really good in the deck. Um, so, I don't really want to play Artisan because it's really a bad counter stadium against Lost Box. Like, you want to counter their Beach Court or their Pokestop, but giving them Artisan is, like, argue arguably just better for them because you Iono them and then they just have immediate access to another Sableye. Uh, so, I want to play, like, a different stadium, I think, than, than Artisan. I just don't know. Which one I'll decide on. Sinnoh is obviously very good against Lugia, but it's actively bad against other Path to the Peak decks, like Maraadon and Mew. You really don't want to be bumping their path with your Temple of Sinnoh because it shuts off your reversal energy. So, it like makes one matchup better, but makes... Other matchups weaker. Um, League HQ is like, fine. It's like, not that great against Lost Box. It's okay if they don't know that you play it. They, they'll burn like a bunch of stadiums and lost vacuums. Uh, but that only works for game one. Maybe that's fine because you can just play a really long game one. Um, it has marginal utility in other matchups as well. Like, it can be okay against Lugia, obviously not as good as Sinnoh, and it can be good against Miraidon. As well, uh, probably second best matchup it's, it's in is Miraidon. So, that's, like, really the big things that I'm debating right now.
Brent:I dig it. Guys, any, uh, any words of wisdom for Mike before he goes to Tarantho?
Liam:Yeah, I heard Playtowards60 there, bro, but Artisan, Artisan Vacuum is like, That's, like, also really good in the Lost Fox matchup. Like, being able to search Cress and then bump the Artisan the same turn. It's like, I found it to be pretty big, because you're down to 2 fog crystal at this point. Um, it's like standard, but yeah. Having Artisan Vacuum is really good for searching out Cress, and then you get to play, like, good cards.
Mike:Okay, here's a question for you. I was talking to some other prominent players today, uh, about Gardevoir. I don't wanna say who they are and, and, and give away what they're gonna play, but they're gonna play Gardevoir. And they are trying to convince me that third fog crystal is better than... The fourth level of all, and I said no way. What do you think?
Liam:I think if you cut the artisan, maybe. If you don't, fourth level ball. No, it's always fourth level ball. What am I
Kaden:No, yeah, it's always
Liam:always fourth level ball. Oh my God. Disgusting.
Kaden:Like, how often,
Liam:Step now. Uh, yeah,
Kaden:how often in your first two turns are you looking for a Ralts or a Curlia or a Mew versus looking for a Psychic Energy? Well, I guess we can actually just focus in on turn 2. How often on turn 2 are you looking for a Curlia versus a Psychic Energy? I feel like the answer is usually Curlia.
Liam:Yeah, dude, like, oh my god, bro.
Mike:Yeah.
Liam:These are the decisions that, like, you know, when somebody says, oh my god, I brick so hard this tournament, you look, and you're like, of course you brick, dude. You open with a Fog Crystal route instead of Level Ball. And, like, then you miss Mirage Step, and then you didn't set up, and then you lost. And, like, it wasn't the RNG that got you, it's because you played the bad cards, bro.
Mike:Yeah, I mean like I understand the logic, like getting enough psychic energy in the
Liam:Fog Crystal's great.
Mike:It can be a bottleneck for the deck, but I think a bigger bottleneck is the, is finding Corleas, turn two, turn three.
Liam:Yeah, Level Ball's a great card, bro.
Mike:Yeah.
Brent:Curlia is like... I've heard nothing but good things about what happens when you put down Curlias and you're playing Gardevoir.
Mike:Yeah.
Brent:Every person I talk to tells me when I got out a bunch of Curlias, I did super good.
Mike:Exactly. And I think, and I think you're right that like, the fourth level ball is even more important with the Mirage Step now. Like, you just, you need to Mirage Step turn two in so many matchups, and level ball it to do that more consistently.
Brent:Alright, are we ready to talk about Mike's hot takes?
Kaden:I'm already, I'm already, all ears,
Liam:Yep.
Brent:We should have some special music for this. Duhhh, it's Mike's Hot Takes. Hot takes, hot takes, hot takes.
Liam:That'd be
Mike:done these in, uh, a couple sets, but talking to my, actually wait, before we do these, I want to shout out, I ran my first pre release this past weekend, and I have not attended, well, I haven't, I still have not played in a pre release. In like 15 years, but this was the first pre release that I attended because I ran it in 15 years. Um, and it was okay. I think if I wasn't running it, I would not have gone. Um, but
Brent:Mike's sales pitch for his next pre release, folks.
Mike:it's just not my type of thing, you know? Um.
Brent:is it not your type of thing?
Mike:It's I mean, it's not competitive at all like and and that's appealing for a large chunk of people right but like It's, like, not competitive at all. You have very, very little agency over your deck. Um, like, you get, you get, I don't know if you guys have played in a pre release, but you get this 40 card deck, and then you get four more packs, and then you build a new 40 card deck. And, uh, it's like, okay. Like, for me, I actually did, um, open one up and build a deck just in case people wanted to play a game or two, and I did play some games, but like, I opened up the fire build. And Battle Deck, it had four of the Chi Yu, uh, which is a decent basic fire type, um, and it just, it had four of those, and then I opened up in my packs the Armour Rouge EX and the Sharkadet. So, like, my deck was just, like, four Chi Yu, one Armour Rouge EX. EX, like 20 fire energies and some trainers and I just smoked like any game I played I just smoked everybody like it Wasn't even close because I opened up the like the best fire EX Pokemon in my packs and so like That's just kind of how pre releases go I think
Brent:That sounds about right.
Mike:Yeah There was the
Brent:mean, I recognize they introduced a whole build and battle thing to try to make it less like I pulled an EX, EX in 59 Energies, I win every pre release, and, uh, but like, it didn't really fix it.
Mike:yeah,
Kaden:I think it is
Brent:did you get one of the right four? If so, you get a free dubs. If you get an EX, you get even more dubs.
Kaden:I don't know, I think it is leagues better than it used to be, like, I remember old pre releases, um, I mean, I'm never gonna forget, I had this one pre release, where I pulled Lucario EX, and, um, I played, I played one Lucario EX, and whatever it was, 39 fighting energy,
Mike:Hell, yeah
Kaden:and I, and I did not lose the game. It was not close.
Liam:that, dude, that Lucario was so good because it had, it had three attacks and it, it ramped super well. It was, like, one energy for some amount and then, like, two energy for... More, and then 3 energy for more, so like, you just, you started hitting hard really fast, and then you were like one shotting everything by like turn 3.
Brent:Well, and that's, but even, even with the battle build things, that Lucaria would have been like that, cause it was like, if you get one energy on there, you're knocking out whatever, whatever like, sucky basics they have. If you get a second energy, you're knocking out whatever stage ones they have. If you get three energies on there, you're knocking out everything on the board.
Kaden:well, yeah, but my point is I wouldn't have been able to run one Lucario and like 39 fighting energy Because my Lucario probably would have been knocked out
Mike:Yeah, yeah,
Liam:Yeah, dude, I...
Kaden:the building battles.
Mike:yeah, that's true. That's a good point, like there was a dude that pulled an Ironhands EX and like, you know, in this format Ironhands is probably really broken, right? But, one of the build and battle decks had a thick Glyne of the Aegislash, which can't be hit by EX Pokemon, so he ran up into one of those guys and, uh, did not have a good round.
Brent:Hehehehehehehehe Anyway, anyway, hot takes.
Mike:All right. So the reason that I mentioned that is I haven't done the hot takes in a while, but some of the local players, uh, in particular my friend Patrick, shout out to Patrick, he was like, yo, Mike, you gonna do a hot takes for Paradox Rift? I was like... Alright, you know what? Sure. So, um, I posted on Twitter, if you haven't seen it, go, go take a gander, um, I posted three things and then, uh, kind of a bonus one that you might have missed. So my three hot takes. Number one, Lost Box and Gardevoir are still tier one decks. Number two, Chien Pao with Iron Hands is worse than the current Chien Pao list that we've been seeing, uh, be successful. Number three, Earthen Vessel, which is the... Moderately Improved Professor's Letter is the card from this set that has the most copies of it. In top 8 of LAIC. And then the bonus one that I posted a little bit after is that if Gardevoir and I didn't say this but Slash Lossbox if those decks drop from Tier 1, it's not going to be because of Iron Hands, but because of Iron Valiant, which I think is a very good card. So, those are some of my thoughts. Unsurprisingly, the first person to comment With Jake Earhart dissenting on my opinions. So, what do we think, guys?
Kaden:um, I mean, I'm gonna throw out my I've got one singular hot take that either is gonna be, like, the most incredible prediction of the next, like, two or three metas, or, like, way off base. I think Iron Valiant is gonna be a way more disruptive card than Iron Hands. Um, I think this card is, like, meta warping and breaking in honestly more ways than Iron Hands. This is my, this is my hot take for Paradox Rift. Um, I think that, you know, people say that Iron Hands is, like, really easy to set up and whatever, and I, one, I don't know if that's fully true, and two, I think the bigger problem is, um, in a lot of matchups, it's just trading even, and, um, Iron Valiant, on the other hand, uh, is very much not trading even. Uh, this, I think, I think iron valiant is gonna be a substantially more oppressive deck for, or a suppressive, a substantially more suppressive card for decks like Lost Box and Guardi than Iron Hands is.
Mike:Yeah. Okay, so we agree. Yeah, I, I, I agree with that. I think Iron Valiant, like, has a potential to really box out these low HP decks, slash, you know, evolving decks pretty significantly.
Liam:I do not at all, like, yeah, I would have told you, um, that I thought Iron Valley, it was okay, but now that we're talking about it, and I spent another 10 seconds thinking about it. That card is terrible.
Mike:Did you know Iron Valiant has Floatstone and Muscle Band in one card? Did you know that?
Liam:it has Floatstone and Muscleman? Wait, how does it have Floatstone? Oh, oh, it has the, yeah, the 20 and No Retreat.
Mike:Yep.
Liam:Yeah, the No Retreat's really good. Um, but, either way, I like... You tell me what the card does and it does an 80 snipe if you hit 4 switch effects. Hmm, that
Kaden:you know you can run? Did you know you can run Meta Cham with Iron Valiant and get another turn of Iron Valet
Liam:terrible. I saw somebody say on Twitter, and I'm realizing this is completely true, like, Lost Box decks struggle to hit four Comfey on turn one, and you're trying to hit four Iron Valiance on turn one, and then into a Medicham! Like,
Kaden:No, I'm not trying to hit four. I'm trying to hit, like, two
Liam:to hit two or three, you're gonna get blown off the board if you're not taking KOs! They just evolve, and then what?
Kaden:What do you mean, against Guardian?
Liam:Yeah, sure, sure, yeah, yeah, Guardian. What do you do against Garde? No, Garde actually sounds like a horrible matchup. Yeah, that sounds terrible. You've never KO'ed Garde yet. You've never KO'ed
Kaden:so there are, there are two decks, there are two lists, there are two Iron Valiant decks that I've seen floating around. Um, which are, which are Iron Valiant, and Iron Valiant with, like, Urshifu shenanigans. Um,
Liam:like, it needs to be heavily supplemented if it's gonna
Kaden:I, I, yes, I do not think you run a, I'm not talking about you run just a Iron Valiant deck. I don't think that works. Just like how if you ran a just Ironhands deck, that also really isn't gonna work. Um, I feel like the, I feel like Iron Valiant though has the potential to create some, um, very, very oppressive decks that have Like, highly favored to auto win matchups against Guardi and Lostbox.
Liam:Well, I don't think Lost Box and Guardia are real. Uh,
Mike:well, and like part of the other, uh, you know, big question mark of this metagame is Chien Pao and like how does Chien Pao do with or without iron hands and I think Iron Valiant Like, you might just box Chi and Pao out, right? Like, you just kill the Frigidbacks immediately. Um, like, you might,
Liam:Axe, and then they evolve, and then they run your board.
Mike:I mean, you kill one, you met it, you met a Shaman, and then you kill the next one. I don't
Liam:Oh yeah, buddy, we're hitting Medicham now. Oh my god. Yep, we're hitting Medicham turn one. Oh my god. The deck isn't built around it, it's gonna be heavily supplemented, but we're hitting Medicham turn one. Don't worry.
Kaden:I, no, no, no, no. I think this deck, um, has the potential to, um, you know, have a very favored Champa matchup going first. I don't think you can pull off the, like, crazy, I'm gonna wipe out all your Fridgebaxes. Going second? No, of course not. Um, however, I
Liam:the Iron Valiant is a
Kaden:if you're playing like the Urshifu version, you can still do the similar thing that Urshifu is able to do against Chenpao that gives it, basically, like a very heavily favored matchup against Chenpao, which is, you know, you just yo you set up your damage, Yoggaloop the Manaphy, and then Urshifu killed up killed any Vax pieces on the board. And that is kind of just game losing for Chenpao. Um, I agree I agree a lot with, um, your hot take, Mike, about the Ironhands version of Chenpao being worse. I think Ironh real matchup that I think Ironhands, like, really helps with is Lugia. Um, I think it is rea I think I, you know, I read your reply to Jay I think you kind of underplayed how helpful it is in the Lugia matchup. Um, the Lugia matchup is, like, very 50 50, maybe slightly unfavored right now. I think Ironhands makes it, like, quite, quite favored, which might be reason and I do think it helps. Um, quite a bit against the, against Lost Box, while, I mean, theoretically at least keeping somewhat of a similar Guardian matchup. Um, so, for that reason it might be worth running. But I think,
Liam:Silence.
Kaden:I think it is not as, like, completely broken as people make it out to be.
Mike:Well, let's dig into iron.
Kaden:spots.
Mike:Sure, sure. Let's dig into Iron Hands a little bit. So like, I think we can see pretty easily how it can fit in Chi Pal. Um, you know, you take the, the current list, you drop the switches, you drop the colognes, you fit some iron hand stuff, boom. You got a, you got an Iron Hands Chi Powell deck. You can see kind of how it fit in a little bit. Like, uh, I don't love the idea of playing ni in Lucia, but I can see how it fits. You know, you, you take colorless, Lucia, you drop a couple energy, play a couple Earth and Betts. Um, play an Ironhands or two, play some Lightning Energies, okay, you got, you got an Ironhands, Lugia. What is Ironhands getting played in besides those two decks? Like, I just can't see where else it fits. Maybe, maybe you play in a Lost Box deck, but what are you gonna do? You're gonna double Mirage Gate to your Ironhands? Like, what?
Liam:that's terrible.
Mike:Like, that
Kaden:I mean, I mean,
Mike:right?
Liam:No, like,
Kaden:all, I think you would run inm, write-on, I don't know how, what matchups it actually changes inm write-on. Um,
Mike:What are you, how are you pirating up a Miridon? You get, like, you have to hit, like, a double Generator and, and a Flaaffy out? Like, ugh,
Kaden:well, you, I would run an XT share if I'm, if it really helps and I'm running it, I would
Liam:bench that thing, bro. Pre benching that thing with the XP shares,
Mike:Yeah, I'm just going to boss it up, kill it.
Liam:Yeah.
Mike:I don't
Kaden:I mean, I, I think it depends what matchups it's helping with. I, I would need to think about it. I don't know Meite on that.
Mike:Yeah, I mean like, okay, yeah. Okay, maybe it gets played in Maraadon. But like Maraadon, I, yeah, I think, I think more to your point, Kayden, is like what matchups does actually help? Like, I cannot see it helping enough against a Lost Box type of deck to make the matchup favored. Like, like there's no, there's no way that'll happen,
Liam:That's a crazy statement from somebody who says Lost Fox and Guardia are still gonna be tier 1, when if you hit with that thing on turn 2, you just win against both of them!
Kaden:Right,
Mike:there is no shot you're hitting with that turn one or turn two, like there's no way.
Liam:This format is
Mike:And Maridon.
Liam:I bring that to a tournament, bro.
Mike:Like what are you doing? Like Maridon, you're, you're, you're finding it, attaching to it
Liam:I'm gonna find a way to power that thing up on turn 2 every game. I'm gonna ruin the format, bro. That thing is gonna be stinky.
Kaden:also, wait, like, if I'm playing Turbo, if I'm playing Turbo Lostbox, I'm just trading even into the Iron Hands
Liam:Yeah, what if I find a V Guard? What if I find a V Guard, Brody?
Kaden:So are you playing, are you playing Lugia now?
Liam:Who knows? Maybe it's the Lugia version. I don't know. Even if you do get, like, Dragonite KO it, bro. What if I KO the Dragonite and then I hands the turn after that, bro?
Brent:I think, I
Liam:I'm gonna IRA
Kaden:Right, my point is, my point is, Lostbox can do that exact same thing with cards like D Knight. Like, you're just trading two for two at that point.
Liam:No, no, no, no, no, because I take the first one, because when I KO the one prizer, I take two prizes. And when you KO a one prizer on turn one or something, you take one prize. Hey, Iron Hands is stinky for the trading. Like, like, that's, that's not even debatable. Iron Hands will, like, uptrade versus everything if you can swing with it turn two. Like, that's just a fact.
Mike:That's a big
Liam:Whether, whether or not you can do
Mike:four energy cards.
Liam:But, but given that that card literally outtrades everything, I'll find a way, bro. Thanks for watching!
Brent:I mean,
Liam:a way.
Brent:of Unturned are there,
Liam:I know people have said on Twitter they're gonna play, like, Thorin and Ironhands and Gardevoir.
Mike:That
Liam:faster than that, bro! I'm hitting on turn two!
Mike:I mean, that sounds really bad.
Liam:Yeah, that's not terrible.
Brent:Unturned too, he's a goat.
Kaden:right, so, so, so, Liam,
Brent:That's the kind
Kaden:are you, are you running, are you running Chimpo? Ironhand's next format?
Liam:I have no clue. I'm gonna find a way to power that thing up on turn two every time. It's gonna be unstoppable. And it's gonna win the game in, like, three turns. I'll find a way. I, like, I don't, I don't even know. Maybe, I think there's, like, Yeah, I, I have no clue, bro. I'll find a way. Maybe it's even, like, the Enerjet, Enerjet thing. Uh,
Brent:tool hitter that Liam is. He's going to go from, like, stall player to, like, fastest player in the format.
Kaden:I do want to note, taking an extra prize has not always been a horribly broken mechanic. Like, it has been done before in a manner, like, I remember, I remember, um, everyone was making a huge fit, you know, and of course this is a long time ago, but when Lugia EX came out, um,
Brent:That was Liam's deck. That was Liam's deck when he was like 7 year old junior, man. Don't be messing with Overflow.
Kaden:I remember when that card got revealed, and everyone was like, screaming about how broken this card was, and like, you take an extra prize, and how it was just gonna like, break the game and break the format. Like, the card was going for like, six, or for sixty dollars during pre release season. Um, it was the hype of everything, um, and it just, it ended up, you know. Like, it
Mike:very mediocre.
Brent:We didn't start playing until the Tins came out, but Liam was the king of like, 4 Deoxys, Choice Band, Chorus Machine, Chorus Machine, I just took 3 prizes on turn 2. What?
Liam:Yeah, I think
Kaden:yeah,
Liam:like, the only thing I knew how to do, was, like, go for the Giga Nuts on turn two.
Brent:That way, we only had one strategy. I
Kaden:yeah, but my point is that, like, um, it's very easy to look at Take an Extra Prize and be like, how is there any world where this is not, like, just horribly, like, game breaking, and I think it is important to recognize that, like, You know, it, it, it has not always been the case that it's, it's game breaking, if that
Brent:people don't value Yoga
Liam:but you just named like a card that has
Brent:the abstract,
Liam:Yeah. You, like, you just named a card that's like filled with like extra restriction. Like that card was mid, it was against like, yeah, it had no, had no, um, it, it was like filled with like a, an ex format. Like, I think, like obviously you weren't like one hitting, uh, evil towels or, um, IANS and Gen X and whatever. Like, I, I don't
Brent:No, you were! You were going for Deoxys
Liam:going for the di No, no, no. All right, then like.
Brent:Muscle
Liam:I can see how that card would not be amazing in that format. You think about Iron Hands in this format, you think about how it attacks on turn 2, it outtrades everything, how it has 230 HP, it hits for 160, it has like literally Snorlax level stats, and it's Lightning type, that card is like, every good attribute on every card that's been printed in like the last 2 years is on that card.
Kaden:well, that's a wild statement.
Liam:230 HP,
Mike:Alright, well we'll see in the next few weeks. Um, I do have one other, one,
Liam:TAKE EXTRA PRIZE! That
Mike:I have one other somewhat hot take that didn't make the list but I'm curious on your guys thoughts and then we can wrap it up. I think Regis could make a comeback with Earthen Vessel. Hmm, Regis seems pretty, Regis gets around the Iron Hands, BS. It doesn't get one shot by, right? Yeah, it doesn't get one shot by Iron Hands, none of them do. And I feel like with Earthen Vessel you can play different basic energy, you get some Discardian in there. I don't know, seems pretty good to me.
Liam:And one second, let me, let me read you some text, bro.
Kaden:I hadn't thought about this.
Liam:It says, once during your turn, if you have Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Regieleki, and Regidrago in play, you may attach three energy cards from your discard pile to one of your pokes. Alright. That card is terrible. It doesn't matter how much support it gets, it doesn't matter that it's made top 8s before, that card
Mike:I get to one shot your iron hands though, Regirock's coming in, smacking you.
Liam:is terrible. You bench 0 engine Pokemon, and you find the right 3 energy to get in the discard, you're playing a bunch of other ones, you find the right 3 energy to get in the discard, and you put 6 Pokemon on your bench, then you can finally take chaos. Dude, I was watching a stream from like last year, Reggie's was on it, dude. It didn't attack for like the first three turns in scoop, and then it didn't attack for like the first three turns in Scoop, like That is terrible, dude.
Kaden:It also, it also, I mean, it probably takes an awful Zard matchup.
Liam:yeah. It takes an
Kaden:I, I don't know
Liam:an awful guard matchup. That's what, uh, yeah.
Kaden:So, probably not, but, I,
Mike:Oh,
Liam:Like no,
Mike:yeah.
Liam:it, it, it turns out that like that card is just bad because you can read the card and you can tell it.
Kaden:yeah. I stand, I stand with Mike. Ironhand's gonna be, I mean, it's gonna be... Good, it's going to be in the meta, it's going to exist, it's going to be a force, but I don't think it's going to be as game breaking as
Liam:I don't even think, like, a middle ground is possible for that card, bro. It's either it can be powered up and it's going to outtrade everything, or it can't be powered up and it's not going to outtrade anything. It's like,
Kaden:Okay, I don't know about that either. Like, I think in, you know, I think there are
Liam:I think if it's at the point where it's like, you, I think if it's at the point where you sometimes power it up with, like, Maridon at the end of the game, nobody good is going to play that card.
Kaden:No, but you could run it in Shenpao, you know, you're, even if you're getting it powered up like turn three, or even in Lugia, you know, let's say you're not getting it powered up turn two, let's say you're
Liam:Yeah, dude, no, like, if it's not running, no, no,
Kaden:potentially good to run.
Liam:yeah, the deck is not a serious deck. It's like as serious as, like, Miraida is right now. Like, it's a thing, people sometimes bring it, you know, you talk, you talk to, like, any competitive player, and they will tell you that they're not going to touch that deck with a tentacle, like,
Kaden:I mean, time will tell, we'll see how IronhandZX pans out,
Mike:I am glad I'm not going to LAIC. Cause, I'm glad I don't have to figure this stuff out myself, I'll just let other, I'll let Tord figure it out.
Brent:Liam, if you were going to LAIC, would you be just all in on breaking the format with iron hands?
Liam:Yeah, probably. Uh, like, you know, Jake is like, oh my gosh, we, we need to find a counter, but like, you know, I was telling him, like, the easiest thing to do is to take the card that's absolutely insane and just swing with it every turn. Like, work, infinite profit. Like, yeah, I said this in our Discord as well, dude. I'm gonna be pulling a Regan Wretloth, and just taking an absolutely insane deck, and running it down every tournament, and seeing what happens. That's a great strategy. That's
Kaden:I. I agree, I agree, it's a very good strategy. I'm just skeptical whether or not Iron Hands is going to make the splash you think it is. Um, if we want to throw
Liam:You can look at that card, and you know that card is amazing.
Kaden:I think it is a, I think it is quite a good card. Um, I'm not sure if it's actually the best card from this set. Um, I don't
Liam:dude, Jake is actually gonna be like, such a massive clown if he's wrong, bro. Like, I broke my promise because this is, uh, like, the apocalypse. Ugh! That's like,
Kaden:but I will say, I will say. If we want to throw in, and I guess, I guess, maybe this, yeah, yeah, this, if, I also want to say, I agree with Mike, um, Garde is still absolutely going to be tier one. Um, Lost Box, I could, I can see a world where Lost Box falls off. Um, I think Guardia is without a doubt gonna be Tier 1.
Liam:Dude, Lostbox is the deck that, like, wouldn't fall off. Like, Gardi is the deck that can fall off right now because it's like, It is obviously the slowest deck, um, in the meta right now, and like, if a set like this gets released, the meta just speeds up. And like, you know, whatever causes it to speed up, uh, you know, we can debate about that, but I think if the meta does speed up, Guardian's the one to fall off, and I don't see why that would be Lost Box.
Kaden:Well no, I wanna note that my fears about Lost Box have nothing to do with Iron Hands and everything to do with Iron Valiant.
Mike:And, Jirachi to some extent, I guess, but,
Liam:Oh, yeah, I forgot about Tarashi.
Mike:yeah,
Brent:So, yeah, here's the thing I wanted to ask you about the set, and I, you know, we've not done a set review, I haven't looked at all the cards in the set, like, It seems like, like, what interests me about this is, I feel like this is the first time in a bit, in a hot minute, that Pokemon's released a set where I think people look at it and the best cards are not a, like, pre built, like, parasitic deck that they're just handing you.
Mike:yeah, right, there's no, there's no Gardevoir EX, there's
Liam:I think the
Mike:Chi and
Liam:would be Roaring Moon. Thanks
Mike:like obvious, here's what to play, right?
Brent:Yeah, yeah, like, like, where, you know, I think what's interesting about this conversation is the, the trick is, like, it's not obvious how people will play the best cards. And, like, uh, for the last couple of sets, I feel like, I mean, for years, at some level, Pokemon just, like, clubs you over the head with, like, this is the set, this is what you do with this set. Like, here's the deck we're giving you in this set. Don't be dumb.
Mike:Yeah, and that coupled with that, the fact that we're getting this set basically the exact same time as Japan. So we, so, so we don't have any results to go off of and it's just gonna be like, all right, figure it out.
Kaden:I agree. I honestly am, I love this set so much. And I, I am, I still can't wait for when we rotate to Scarlet Violet only. I think the game is gonna be in a fascinating and kind of... Hopefully, Amazing State, but that's a little ways off,
Mike:Yeah,
Kaden:right? We have one more year before that, right?
Mike:we do. Yes. Because like Sableye and stuff is in with the next
Kaden:right, right.
Mike:Yeah. All right. Let's wrap it up.
Brent:that's the show. The Jon Pauls are our outro. We'll be back next week to find out how Mike did in Toronto.
Mike:And we will do a larger Paradox Rift deep dive next week for sure.
Brent:I don't know how we could possibly do that with all the, like, I don't know, 18 rounds you'll have played? Alright, we'll see everybody next week.