Alright, welcome to the Trash Reliance Podcast. I'm Brent Halliburton. I'm back! Yeah, let's go! Me and Mike and Cam and Liam, we're all here. That means attendance is 133%. The Trash Language Podcast is the only podcast about the Pokemon Trading Card Game. I will keep saying it until it's true. Speaking of which, guys, I don't know if you guys were watching the EUIC stream, but there was a point where they were, like, interviewing a guy about how he prepares for tournaments, and he rattled off a bunch of podcasts and did not say ours. I don't know who that guy was, and, like, That's probably a lesson to him, but like, possibly banned from ever appearing on this podcast. I was like, how can you name a bunch of podcasts when we are the only podcast? It's ridiculous. Anyway, no new 5 star reviews. If you leave a review, we'll read it on the pod. It's a thing we do. Dragonshield sends us sleeves because they are the GOATS, and we appreciate them very much. Their sleeves are the best. People will tell you they have problems, but they're better than all the others. Anyway, alright guys, one of us attended EUIC, the rest of us watched on television two of us are going to Orlando in six or seven days, we gotta like, I need you guys to explain to me what the actual play is. Liam has been tweeting aggressively about playing not Staldex, I think there's a lot to talk about in the next hour.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:when is Liam not tweeting aggressively, is the real question.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, I've been, I've been on a crazy streak. I, I don't know, I feel like a few months ago I had a little bit more of a filter. Like, like, the filter, like, kind of fluctuates with time. You know, like, I go, I have these like periods where I'm just You know, I'm going crazy. The thoughts are flowing. And then there's others where, like, I just, you know, every day I wake up and I'm like, I don't need to tweet today. I don't have those thoughts right now. I'm definitely just letting it rip.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:you know, I'm always telling Liam, look at Jason, role model for the game. Maybe the second best player in the history of the game, but still a good ambassador for Pokemon. And as world champion, it's important you be a respectable ambassador. And I think in about 20 percent of Liam's tweets, that really comes out.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:You made it into the Philly Discord the other day as well when you were talking about the willpower and whatnot. There's a bunch of local people being like, what is he talking about? And
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:you know, though, right? You
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:yeah, you just gotta believe Baby
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:if, if you will, that to be true, it always happens.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:I mean, there's only one way Tord can be that consistent, and it's unshakable faith in the heart of the cards.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:it, it is, it really is, like, that, when you think about guys, like, toward, like, Isaiah, like, what separates them from the rest of the pack, it's the entire game, they're thinking about winning, that's all they're thinking about, they're thinking about how they can win, whereas, like, everybody else, as soon as they sit down for round four, they're thinking about lunch, like, I, I can just tell, and, Like, that's the difference between these guys. Some people are trying to win, and some people are like, they're just here to play. You know? And when you're trying to win, every single card, every card you topdeck becomes good, because the only thing that runs through your mind is, how can I use this card to win? It's the only thing. And you just think about it until you figure out a way to win. And all of a sudden, no matter what you draw, you always win. That's why, like, you will good cards into existence. Like, it's a simple, simple process.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:you know who was trying to win this past weekend? Cam Cam
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:No, he wasn't! No, he wasn't! No, he
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:win a little bit, you know, just like a decent amount, but didn't want to win egregiously.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:But then around four he was like, Lunch, lunch in London lunch.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:So Cam, you decided to play Ancient box and you actually don't know a hundred percent. You finished, you made day two, right?
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:hmm. I finished 119th.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:made sure of
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:final record was 9 4 2. I deeded my way into Day 2 at 6 2, which I know that Liam was against, and I don't think if I wanted to win the event was necessarily the best decision, but I wanted to almost guarantee my invite. I needed to get back to Day 2 at some point this season, and went 3 2 1 in Day 2, and alright, not, not a great record, but a winning record. And so, it was alright, I, I really like the deck, I think the deck is, it's decent enough against Charizard we were planning on really Nozard playing like, Lost City or Heavy Turo, and the ones that I ended up playing and beating, they might have had Turo. I think they did end up having Turo, it didn't matter. But maybe not as heavy, not as heavy as some of the lists that won, plus Lost City and Kalz, which I think are the big three Charizard. Kalz variant, Taur's variant, and then I apologize, I don't remember his name, but just kind of like the standard top 4 list. And
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:William Veto.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:yeah and that top 4 list is probably the one I'm best against. The one I'm worst against is probably Kals, and like, Tord's is kind of in the middle. But outside of Zard, everything else feels fine. And so I just thought it was a really good deck, that it's a one prizer, that hits for a lot of damage, you have really long games, just because you're a one prizer. And it ended up being pretty solid but the issue with ancient boxes, it bricks sometimes and I bricked a couple times.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Let's start there.'cause we saw. We saw some other Ancient Box also do well notably Gabriel, or Gabriel Fernandez won in Seniors, his older brother Vinny made Day 2 and I think finished, like, Top 64, I
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:shouted out Liam for his work on the deck. So Liam was in there.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:you very much.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I know Xander Perrault also played a list that was kind of like in between your list, Cam, and and Vinny's. So. And then, and then also related, not exactly the same deck, but not too different, is the Roaring Moon Dunsparce deck, which, which we can, we can loop into this conversation as well. So one thing that is different about your list compared to Vinny and Gabriel's is you have a lot of research. You have three research. I think Xander had two research. So like I said, somewhere in between. Why'd you go with the heavy research?
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I think it came down to, you need to Sadas every other turn is kind of the plan because you Sadas just do things, you attach, and then they'll knock out and you can kind of attach and try to weave in a different supporter than Sadas during that turn, a boss is one of them, if you can target out something on the bench, that's great, usually that's maybe later in the game and then Explorer's Guidance, which I know everyone, everyone is playing at four of, that card kind of just feels really bad to play.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:It sucks. It's terrible. I
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:so, I was working on a list with my friend Aban, Research was the card we came up with, just because, if you you just kind of want to refresh your hand sometimes, you don't want to just add to like, if you have like a three card hand, you don't want to add two cards to that, and you're dumping the Explorers, right, so you're, and you're like plus one ing, essentially so we just tried research and ended up pairing really well with Pokigear because you can Pokigear four explorers and then research it away and it's essentially like a plus ten. And then it just kind of helps you get to the bottom of your deck or closer to the bottom of your deck, which is kind of what Pokigear does. Ancient Box wants to do and so it's just a better card than Explorers, I think, and it really makes your next hand much better. Out of seven cards, like, if you see a not a Welder, a Sadas off of your Explorers, you kind of have to keep it, even if you have other good cards in there. If you research, you get, you get to keep everything. You get to keep your countercatchers, your energy, your sadas, your whatever else you want to keep. And it actually is pretty good to help set up initially. If you go first and you attach and then you have a research or then you like attach again, research, and then you should be kind of set up from there and you're hitting at least, you know, 120, 150, depending on what you're attacking with, whether it's the Karidon and the or the Roaring Moon, but just felt pretty solid. Compared to the other supporter options.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Make sense? Make sense to me? I agree. I've even,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:PTCG
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:deck, we talked a little bit about that last week, and I've been slowly adding more research into that list as well for similar, for similar reasons. The other, like, major difference is you played Primecatcher.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Mhm.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Why Primecatcher over the over the drum?
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:It's actually specifically, I mean it's just a good card in general, but the matchup that I practiced a lot against was Charizard, and if you actually look at the seniors finals, there was a situation which I don't think either player Realized in the moment was that the ancient box player Gabriel didn't pal pad back boss's orders at the end of the game. And so what they're assuming is gonna happen is that the Charizard player takes a knockout and goes down to one. And then you can go, oh yeah, I have my countercatcher. And I'll gust up, because I'm at 2, you're at 1. And then we've realized, a good Zard player, when we practice the matchup a lot, you're so low in your deck, the Zard player can actually just push up a 1 prizer if you have no gust, and say, no actually, you need to take the 1 first, or, if you pass, you're gonna deck first before me, and you just get into the stalling more. So, I felt like, boss, I ended up on 2 Palpat and Primecatcher. Gave you enough gusts at the end where you can not try, you can try not to get locked into that situation where you're both kind of just stalemated, but Charizard has the advantage because you've thinned yourself down to like 4 cards in deck and they can just pass 4 times or something like that. And so having a lot of gusts kind of helped a little bit. Now, when you draw it can kind of be important in the Tarzan matchup, but it kind of helped that one situation. And if And my whole plan was to not go down to one prize against Zard and it actually, most Zards I went to one against Zard, I think they just assumed they would roll me, and then I only lost one because I double Bricked, so the Gust really helps, and I think it catches them off guard when you can like start hitting their Pokemon pretty you know, the ones you want to hit, and not go down to two and like target down the Charmeleon, and target down the Rotom. The damages aren't on the bench, so, yeah.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:So with so I guess a little bit of the consequence of playing one less explorer and no drum is that you just have two less ancient cards, right? So do you feel like you're, like it's already really hard even with both of those extra cards to hit the 330. So is your list ever hitting the 330 or not
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:No. It's, that's never happening, and I just assume that if they didn't play heavy Turo, that you can just two shot, right, like, that's, that's kind of the, the trade that you do because you're, you're one prizer, you can hit him twice, they can hit you to kind of even out the two prizes they're taking, and then you maybe make one up on like a Pidgeot or a Rodom or a Luminium that they had to bench. At some point just to get set up.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Vinny's List hits for a 330, Vinny's List does,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Yeah, in the dream scenario, but it didn't hit it in the, you can see how hard it is, even if your deck is set for it, because Vinny's Gabriel never hit 330 and was like, Yeah, at least 50 off, like, every single time, so, even a list with more and more discard. Yeah, I know, you know, Liam's shaking his head, but, A, real life sometimes,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:He watched two games, he watched two games, I played that matchup a lot more than
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I'm, yeah, I'm just saying, yes, it can happen, I just don't think it happens all the time and I'd rather have the gust than, like, more mobility and more choosing what I get a knockout than, like, a 330 that
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:The gust is
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:late game, maybe.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:The gust is mid. The scenario that Cam just gave, he was like, Did you know that if they don't choose to Palpad the Boss for whatever reason, you can run out of Gust, and this is why you need the Pride venture. Like, just Palpad the Boss, it's fine. You easily have enough Gust. The Gust is not super good with the deck, you can just hit through everything. As long as you play enough Ancient cards, you just dump. And yeah, Vinny's List is really good. I like Vinny's List. Best list.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I'm gonna play around with them a little bit. Like I said, I've mostly just played around with the Moondunsparce, which can obviously never get anywhere near 330, so it's more of like a two shot game. Did you play around, Cam, with the Moondunsparce at all, or not
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:No, I just didn't have enough time. Maybe if I had more time, I actually said that I might have ended up on that list instead. It's pretty cool. I actually think it I don't think it does well into the normal Ancient Box, but it's probably more consistent in the midgame just because of the Dunsparce which is a really cool card and a nice way to just always have a pivot, which sometimes, like, if you don't hit your Sadas or you just don't find your basics, like, with Ancient Box it can kind of stink. So That kind of gives you another consistency out, I guess, in some ways.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, for sure. One thing that I've been telling some of My local friends that have been trying to play the Ancient Box. I feel like Ancient Box might be a misnomer because, like, you're still not really attacking with Corridon and Fluttermane, like, ever, pretty much, I assume, right? Like, it's like 90 percent of the time, 95 percent of the time, you're just attacking with Roaring Moon and not going wide with your board, just trying to build up the discard. Am I right with that? Heh
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I've, I actually, we use Karide on a decent amount. I think, like, just what I'm trying to accomplish compared to Vinny's list is very different. I'm, like, I know Liam is shaking his head, but it's just a different approach to the deck. And I think that's the misunderstanding on his side. Like, I'm not trying to do what Vinny's doing. And that's okay. I'm not saying Vinny's list is bad. I'm just saying, like, my, I'm trying to accomplish something different here. And so, like, being able to two shot, like, Karidon, going 150, and onto a Charizard, and then you just need to hit 180 with a You know, you just need to have 11 with Roaring Moon to finish the knockout, to hit 330, that's not too bad. And if they ever, I found that people try to target down your Ninja, so actually, it's pretty funny that if you go down 150 and they target down your Ninja to, to be like, Oh, I'm not going to put things in the discard and try to hit your draw, you just bench another. Ancient. And you're actually like, Oh, 150 plus 180 is 330 again. So it's You know, just different situations yeah, you'll never hit the 330 one shot now because you have six Ancients on the board, but
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:When I guess, so I guess like the magic number for your list in a lot of matchups then is like that, that 160, 170,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:yeah, it's 19, I think you need for Roaring Moon specifically, if you try to two shot with Roaring Moon, it's 19 over two turns, like 9 and 10, 7 and 12. That's what gives you the 330.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:all right any, any other like notable games or anything that you want to talk about from your run? You can go round by round, but don't feel, don't feel like you have to.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I just think, I actually think the deck is still, it's an interesting deck. I don't want to say it's like the best, well placed, you know, it doesn't have, it has a suspect Zard, especially against kind of the list that came out with double Turo and Taurids and this control version in Kals, which I think maybe, you know, won't get as much traction because Kal ended up kind of not doing as well in the end, even though he had a great run. Nonetheless, and it's a really good list but against everything else, I think you're kind of like a counter to the counter, right? Like if anyone picks up Gardi, if anyone picks up Tina, if anyone picks up Future Hands, you kind of beat all these other decks and you're like, ah, Zard low rolls, then maybe I'll take it, which is kind of like, it's not exactly Mariadon, but kind of my thought process in Mariadon last, you know. Pre rotation just like hire all these other decks and maybe you'll just beat the Zard and that's okay.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Did, did, did you, you felt like you had a good, like, future hands matchup going into the event?
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:It's entirely dependent on if they know how to play the matchup and I think the Prime Catcher also really helps there
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yes, yeah, Primecatch is really good for that,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:in that specific matchup as well. If they know what they're doing Prime Catcher actually makes it so you're not just entirely Dependent on if they know what they're doing, you have a little more autonomy with the gust to go after the hands early and things like that.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:you go up there, yeah.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:But yeah, that's what I think about the deck. I might still play it. I'm not sure. I'm trying some other stuff. These are lists are really good. But ancient box probably won't be like. The BDIF ever and I think it's actually decision making in the late game is maybe harder than people will anticipate because you can set up checkmate because you're like, well, I only have five cards in hand and two cards in deck and I'm not going to get down to Iono to one and I can kind of stack my deck a little bit and almost guarantee it through the Iono which is actually one of the strongest parts of the deck, I think. But, it also has it's weaknesses, I think a Pidgeot Zard, it will never, not a Pidgeot Zard, Pidgeot Control, it will never beat, and a really good Zard that's hitting on all cylinders probably won't beat
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:That was the question I was gearing up to ask you, was whether or not
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Dude, what did, what did you find, you find super hard about the Pigeot matchup?
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Pidgeot Control. I mean,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:let's
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:like, if they're playing Mawile and then they'll just trap, that's kind of the big thing, is they'll just trap your your fluttermanes eventually. They keep Erikazing and you'll just run out of energy that way. If you just try to stick to Double Moon or something like that. But even then, like Double Moon, they bring up one fluttermane, you need to put three energy down, and then they put down another fluttermane and you're out of energy all of a sudden.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:yeah.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:So I have one other question about Ancient Box. Are is, like, is Gabriel the next big thing? Are the Fernandes brothers gonna surpass the Shemeski brothers as, like, greatest brothers of all time? You know, ten years from now, we look back and say, the Fernandes brothers, they're the greatest thing ever.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:They might be. They're pretty good. They're pretty good. I know Liam really likes them. So Liam, why don't you tell us?
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I mean, easily the best seniors run out of any brothers, I think. Maybe Mike with the infinite old head knowledge will prove me wrong, but Yeah, I mean, absolutely insane run in seniors. Vinny is one for one on winning US regionals. And the, you know, pretty solid placements everywhere else. Had, like, one event in the last three years that they've attended that they haven't won. Pretty good.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, that is pretty good. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely, Seniors has, in history, has had, like, a bunch of very dominant players. I mean, you look at Michael Long, I mean, there's some questions there, of course, but he had an insane run. Way back in the day, the, the same dude won, like, only one regional a year, like one regional, one US nationals, and one world, like all in The three major tournaments of the whole year. Stuart Benson. If you guys remember Blaine Hill, he top baited Worlds a couple years ago. He had an older brother, Jordan, who like won like a ton of stuff, but I mean, What we're seeing from Gabriel is, is just as impressive, if not more impressive than all of those. And, and the difficulty of events now is, is significantly, significantly more, especially in seniors. Like, I think, I think like the difficulty in Masters is like it's like definitely at higher level, but it's But, like, there's other factors too, of like, you know, That we don't need to get into right now, but I think seniors is like undeniably much harder than it was earlier
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:man. Coaching is crazy. These
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. That's like a really big part of it.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Yeah, everyone has a coach now, nowadays, in the seniors division.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Silence. Silence.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:if I were at UIC. One of my, one of our friends, Mike Natto, shout out to Mike, he Lost is winning into day two, but he played he played the deck. Our list is a little bit different than the stock list that have been going around, and the list that made top 8 and top 16. Notably we dropped the tracking shoes. The shoes are good, but Like, we play Gears and Research over those pretty much which feel overall a little bit better to me. And we, we've been playing a little bit more boss as well. I think the, the two lists that made Top 8 had some, I think they each had one boss, one countercatcher. And then one of them also had an Iron Bundle, which I think is interesting. It's not something I've played many games with, but it seems okay. We've been playing just two, or sometimes even three, Real Boss, plus the Prime Catcher, of course. That deck definitely plays more like your version of Ancient Box Cam, where it's just trying to two shot stuff. And then, obviously, we use Roaring Moon EX for the for the big KOs. So, the And a lot of the same conclusions and a lot of the same matchup spreads, I think, as Ancient Box, where Charizard, I just felt like the matchup was pretty good. Like, pretty close, and then if the Charizard player is really good, it's probably unfavored. And then the Iron Hands matchup also wasn't that great. So, like, I've been thinking about maybe playing a Brute Bonnet. That might help the Iron Hands matchup, but I haven't tested it out enough. And then the Charizard list that did well, Tord and William, both of them did not play Mist Energy, which is a big deal for our, for that deck, for the Moonsparce deck. More easily you can just kind of like KO two little things in the early game and then go gouging, gouging to win the game. So if that picks up, then I do feel like Moonsparce is pretty good. Better positioned. The Turros are annoying, but like you can, if, if you know they play Turros and they don't play Miss Energy then you can just go that route of the big, the big moons rather than even attempting to to two shot them. But I was really happy to see the deck do well, like it lost on stream on the winnin end to probably its hardest matchup in hand, and then the the other one made top eight. It did lose to Pidgeot control which I think one of the other Big selling points about the deck is that it's control matchup and stall matchup are really really good Even if you don't play the penny, which I don't know if those lists played penny or not But like even without the penny you can just go three Dunsparce,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:PTCG
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:big moon As your board, and then they can't ever trap the ninja, it's impossible, if they gust the Dunsparce, you, you know, the Dunsparce, put it back in, grab it back out again you have the answer to Mimikyu, blah, blah, blah the way that I assume the top eight Match went is Alessandro played the Noivern plus Mist Energy, which if they're able to get that up, it's it's You can't beat it It seems like it'd be pretty hard to get that set up because like you have to set up the Pidgeot Really to in order to get that out and then you can kind of just chill and wait for like a Primecatcher boss turn I don't know. Obviously it wasn't streamed. I don't know exactly what happened. But like Shouldn't, it should, it still, it still should be winnable unless they draw like insanely hot and don't need to set up the Pidgeot to get the, to get the Noibern out.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:doesn't work into Aerie and Luxray, right?
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, I guess that's true.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I could also thread Knockout with a Radiant Zard at any point too, right, which is also like another thing you have to have in your mind, so it's just like a lot going on I think on both sides.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, right. That's
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:think another factor is if they get their, like, Rotom, Bravery, Charm, Myst Energy down, you can, it's like really hard to remove that, right, or Hero's Cape yeah.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:So, but yeah, happy to, happy to see it, the deck do well. I think it's pretty strong. I do think both of those decks will see an increase in play going into Orlando. What do you guys think about that?
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I definitely agree. The Dunsparce I think is just,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:sees more play.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:it's a fun deck, it did well, and now we have like a, you know, a stock list that everyone can go off of, right? Might just be like the new ish form of Roaring Moon that kind of popped up at the end of last format, right? And just be a very popular kind of deck that a good percentage of people will play. Maybe hover around 10 13 percent depending on what it is.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:And I agree kind of like what you were saying with the Ancient Box. It's not, like the Roaring Moon Dunsparce is not the hardest deck to play, but there are a lot of like small intricacies to optimize. Order, order of using your Dunsparce versus other cards, how to set up your board, like benching a Moony X preemptively is almost always a throw, like things like that, and like saving. Like, when are you using your dark patches versus when are you sodding I don't know, there's just like a lot of little things that I've picked up as I've played the deck that make it even, honestly, even more fun because of those little things but, yeah, it's like, it's not hard to do, to play it, like, decently well, but I think it's quite hard to to play it at a super high level. Alright.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:thing, I guess, about that deck is I was playing it for the, I was playing a few games on live, and I hit an Ancient Box, and I evolved the active Dunsparce into a Fluttermane. And then, yeah, and I got my thing trapped for like a few turns. That's like a funny interaction. It's also something I guess you could consider, like, Pidgeot or something like that if you really cared that much for some reason. Interesting way to lock the Dunsparce.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:That is funny.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:Liam, any other stuff that you guys saw from, like, watching the stream that you wanna talk about? I feel like I mean, obviously, a critical tournament in Forming Orlando, and I know we wanna start talking about what people are thinking, but I don't know if you had any other big conclusions from EYC.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I guess I'm just curious, like, Cam, I think there's, there's always like a little bit of a difference between when we look at results and watch the stream versus like, what did you feel when you were there? Like, what did you feel in terms of like, what were the good players playing? What did you think was like going? I don't know. Does that kind of make
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:yeah, so I think Like, you know, if you look at all, there's, there's three decks because it was, it was that we're doing well and maybe didn't end up in the top eight because you have to have a perfect run essentially at this point now to get into top eight. And there were like three decks that kind of missed, but we're there in the top eight. Top tables that were very scary one being Controlzard, which is what Luka Zing and Cal Connor were playing, slightly different lists. That is a very good deck I think Cal believes that his version loses to Tina because I think he doesn't have a lot of techs for Tina which may be the case but Other than Tina, like, I was watching him dismantle people, and it looked like Lucas was too and they just kind of ended up maybe hitting some rough matchups or just not being able to close, but still ended up in, like the top tables the entire time, just not in top eight The other one was Gardevoir, which there was three in top 32. One just bubbled out at ninth. It, I played it a little bit. That's also a very strong deck as well
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:It's
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:once again, a base list to go off of for Garde and it's proven itself with three really good players getting top 32 with it and then. I guess the last thing would be the, like, I don't, like, I think Control will never be the most popular deck, it probably will never win an event but, like, that deck is so strong, there's, like, the Pidgeot controls were kind of, you know, Going crazy at the top, and I know they ran into their issues, and ran into Zatina, and Slash ran into Tord, and that'll probably happen on some level at every tournament for the most part, but, like, if you, if you know how to play that deck well, that's another very scary deck, so three, two of them being kinda control ish Pidgeots with The controls are, you know, Pidgeot controls just them being able to grab whatever they want and they know how to, and it's just two different ways to dismantle people. And so those three decks are very scary for a lot of different decks.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Liam, you looked like you were going to say something.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, I hate Pidgeot, bro. I don't, like, I don't, I don't know why, man. Every time I play that deck, it just, it just implodes. And it's, it's not, it's not, like, bad. Like, every time you set up, every time you get the Pidgeot out, and, like, your opponent hasn't made substantial progress yet, you just, like, you instantly win. Because you have, you have everything you need for every matchup. But, like, it just, like, it's just You get Prime Catcher KO'd to, like, maximum disrupt your setup turn to literally every single game. It's like, I don't know how people are doing well with the deck, and how well, why people think the deck is so strong. Like, it has everything it needs, of course, but it doesn't, it's not super consistent, in my experience. Yeah, but like, yeah, I mean, especially coming out of this tournament, people are like, oh my gosh, if you know how to play the deck, it's like the best deck in format, but it seems, it seems meh. I like, the win rate, the win rate's like mediocre when I play it. It's like, you know, 50 50, maybe 55 45, until like general meta. I don't, yeah,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Yeah, but that's the thing with Control and it's felt like that, especially with Eerie, like it's format is, I don't know if it's, it's very different. It's way more interesting than the last format. You just Eerie and then your opponent, like, didn't Iono, or because they just, you know, made a mistake, like, you just get crushed. Like, you make a subtle misplay, or you just happen to have the wrong cards in hand, and the Eerie you, both on Zard and any deck playing Eerie, like, really hurts. And so any deck that can play Eerie,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:If I like,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:one of them, it's, like, pretty strong and just something you can play around, but it's just something you always have to be aware of as the opponent.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I ever got to a spot where I'm taking the turn to play Aerie, I like, I basically always win. Like, you basically always win if you get to go Pidgey it for Airy, and then do your thing, like, it's basically unlosable in that position, but, I mean, I just always, I get run off the board, dude, I get like, Prime Catcher KO, Iron Hands, 3 prizes, turn 2, and like, you know, I'm gonna spend the next turn Rotoming, and like, I'm just gonna take so many prizes so fast, and, and it's, and then they're like, destroying your setup while they do it, it's really I find I get steamrolled, like, way too many games.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Alright, do we want to talk about, do we just want to keep going through some of the other decks? Do we want to think about more Orlando more holistically? What do you think?
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I guess on Dex specifically, we kind of touched on Zard, briefly on the Control Zard
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:I was gonna say, Liam already tweeted he's playing towards 60, we should talk about Zard.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah. I locked it in before I basically played any games. Tord is, you know, trusting the goat. Trusting the goat! I completely meant everything I said in that tweet. But I've played some games with it now. He truly is the GOAT. The list is amazing. Yeah, it's just better than every other Zard list I've played. I haven't put a lot of games in with the Control variant, but I also haven't felt like I needed a Heroescape or Devo or Aerie or Vigileki at all in my games. The, you know, turn 2 Zard. Primecatcher. Like, it just does its thing! It's the BDIF! It's so good! And, you know, Torr made it uber consistent. The Toro stuff wins the mirror along with the Bibarel. It's, yeah, I mean, the deck is so good. And, like, you know super consistent, has everything. It's, yeah, so good.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:So I think the big question on everybody's mind when you first look at Tord's list is the team Yelch here. So you got any, got any insight into the
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:it's so you don't lose to Miss Fortune Sister's Eerie, so they can't rip the Pow Pad, you can use Yautja, right?
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I don't get it, bro. It, like, yes, yes, it gets you more resources versus, like, Snorlax and stuff, right? But Those don't even do anything. Like, they don't do anything. The Mimikyu is still super oppressive. He's not playing the Lost City, so they can just shove it, basically, freely. He has the 50 damage Charmeleon, only one Lost Vacuum, and once it's gone, the Mimikyu is like, basically immortal. Like, maybe there's some idea to Turo five times into that. But, I mean, it just, it does not look good. You still get slaughtered by Pidgeot. They shove the Luxray Hero Cape after they get rid of the VAC, or whatever, and like, basically just delete your entire deck. You never break any, like, you have one VAC, the VAC gets stretched by Sisters, Aerie and then you never get through anything that has a bravery charm ever, no matter how many switches you have, you just don't have the damage output. There's maybe some idea of going into a Heat Tackle Charmander a few times with the Turos, and then giving up a prize to bump the damage, but The, I mean, the real issue is just the Mimikyu. I don't see how he gets through the Mimikyu without going for this, like, Radtar's Shred, but that, of course, has its own issues when your energy gets stretched, and, like, it's just not very good, I think. Like,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:he did tie.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:like you're not playing towards 60, and you're dropping the Yelchier.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I think people, most people
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:trust in the GOAT. I, like, if I don't understand it, it doesn't matter. The whole point is trust in the GOAT. Like, trust in the GOAT. It doesn't
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:just to not lose to Eerie, Miss Fortune Sister's, there's other things you have to worry about, but it's just like what you said, right? Like, he has Prime Catcher, he can be aggressive, he, oh, you put down one Pidgey, I knocked it out and if something goes wrong, okay, like, I'm on you immediately, and I think, I'm pretty sure he tied against
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yes, yes, and I think, I think it's maybe like a viable strat to play for the tie, which is like, you're able to put on enough pressure where they're not able to be super proactive towards like the deck out for long enough that you can like, you can stretch it to a tie somehow but yeah, I, I, I truly don't, don't get it. Yeah. Still playing it, though, of course. Yes.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Maybe not 100 percent standard, but seems really
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Standard. It's probably standard at this point. That's a really good card. Um, Turo is fairly standard at this point. Like, it was something that, like, I think a lot of people were like, Oh, people aren't going to play Turo, they're going to play Eerie. All the good lists ended up having Churro and Eerie so I think that is something that you just at least one, if not two, if you're playing, if they're just completely copying towards lists but Myst is actually something that, like, surprisingly wasn't a hard include, though it looked like some of the online tournaments, it was looking like a hard include leading up to.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah I also think it's interesting that a lot of people are playing a Roxanne now, pretty much, both, both Tord and William and I had seen that starting to creep up, which, it just is a little odd to me, like, what makes Roxanne so much better in this format compared to last format, like, or should we have just been playing Roxanne before? Right.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:playing any Roxanne, and every other Zard that was not from NA was all playing Roxanne. Roxanne does seem like, you know, not an American card. But,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:It kind of threw me off when I played as someone who rocks and me because I I like went down to zero in deck I palpatted two cards. I was like, oh, yeah, I own a me. It doesn't matter. I'm a rocks and me I was like, oh I can actually miss now like this is random I didn't miss but I was like, oh that is kind of troublesome specifically for my deck not that I think that's what they're teching it for but I think it's also like The Zard wants to see a lot of cards, and if you're kind of in this even trade in the mid game, and then you, I don't know, you're both of you down to two, three, like, yes, you have Pidgeot, but sometimes you just, like, Need to see like more than one card right to close out the game So if you can Roxanne them to two and then get yourself to six and you're like, oh There's that one piece I was looking for. Let me pitch you out for the other one
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:That card advantage comes up a lot in the mirror because the Pidgeot gets deleted at 4. With Max Belt a lot. So, yeah, you lose the Pidgeot at 4. And then the Roxanne's really big. Hold that for
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:Why not a different stall or control deck, Liam? Like, there were a couple of different brands that, like, there was just like, Bloklax, right? That top 8ed
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:think that did super well. No
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:Wolters.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:yeah, no, he was just playing Heavy Lax in Pidgeot. I mess around with both builds. I think I would have played Heavy Lax if I was playing Pidgeot to EUIC, because starting Snarlax is, like, a really good way to slow decks down and maybe play without the Pidgeot a little bit, but I don't know, dude, I've been saying for a while, I like, I don't know how these decks don't just get blown off the board by like a quick Prime Catcher. I've been having like, you know, some major issues with it. And like, I think we felt this a little bit at the end of last season as well, against Roaring Moon with like heavy catchers and stuff like that. Where like, When there's a lot of pressure to get Pidgey Rotom down turn 2 into turn 2 Pidgeot, and you have to do this, like, basically every game or you lose, like, the matchups tend to suck, because it's really hard for the deck to do that. It's not really built for that. You're playing so many you don't have a way to search them both out with, like, you don't even have, like, Arvin VIP or something anymore. That never really caught on in the list, but the deck doesn't have a lot of search. It contains so many, like options, right, for the late game. It's basically just 4 Ness, 4 Arvin, and trying to find 2 basics on turn 1 is not always easy. And you have to find, like, Rare Candy Pidgeot turn 2, which, again, is not super easy. The deck is only playing 2 Candy, 2 Pidgeot, 4 Arvin. It's not a ton of outs.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:I recognize they gave us a bunch of really good control cards in this set, but I mean, when I think back to when Guzma was a big part of the format, there were, like, no Staldex at all, because, like, Guzma. It's a magical cure for Staldex. Like, people were running, every deck ran tons of Guzmas already because they needed Gust effects. And you're like, oh, it's also an out to all attempts to stall you out. Guaranteed
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:maybe and maybe the control did well as well like the the thought of there is the idea that yes Control is typically not as good in an open format Because they don't know what to expect, but maybe this time was like, Oh, it's going to be a lot of Zard and ended up being 25 percent Zard, which was, I did not expect it to be that high. I did expect it to be the most played deck. And then maybe you're just preying on people, not having a standard list. They're not playing Prime Catcher. They're not playing a great list or they're not playing the matchup well, because it's so early on, maybe that they also preyed on that for control.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:Oh, you know, the one other question I want to ask you guys about EUIC is I was asking Liam when we were talking about getting ready for the pod today, what's going to be more played? Tord 60 or Isaiah 60? And we were both like Isaiah 60, because, I don't know. Isaiah, but, like, how big how big
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:people love text. People love text. They don't love to see Tord, like, massively improving the Charizard engine, and you know, like, making the deck just overall much better. They love the idea of taking four cards out of their deck to auto Ched Pal. Like, it's, like,
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Bayonet, and Bayonet item lock is just like, cool, right, Leo thought, and it's cooler than,
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:They saw Isaiah Poltergeist, Cream of Scully, for like 400 damage and they're like, that's it baby, I'm playing that.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:it's much cooler than Team Yale's Cheer, right? Like, you're just like, oh, what am I having Team Yale's Cheer for? But then you're like, oh, this Bayonet's very cool. And the Bayonet, the other Bayonet, not the EX one, makes it so it's actually pretty easy. Maybe it gets punished now because people put Jirachi back into their lists, but it makes it so you can get to 10 pretty quickly. A lot quicker than people expect, and you kind of can blow them up with sableye all of a sudden on turn two.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:people love the weird stuff more than, like, the good stuff, like, yeah, but,
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:like, as you said, you said Charizard you expected to be big and it was bigger than you expected. Is Charizard gonna be equally big because Tord just did Tord stuff, or is Tina gonna be, like, a much bigger part of the meta? Like, what do you guys think it looks like coming out of
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah. I think I might be, like, the only person, except for maybe Cam, we'll see if he gets on the train. But, I might be, like, the only person at Orlando running towards exact 60. Because, no, I had to tweet earlier, like, even though people are going to netdeck, of course they will. Like, they're, they're gonna make changes too. They're gonna netdeck it, and then they're gonna, they're gonna make the cards worse. Like, they're gonna make the deck worse. They love to make it worse. Yeah, right. I pray they do, man. I pray they do. Like,
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:When, when Liam halfway through the tournament finds out what that EL Cheer's for, he's gonna be like, they're gonna rue the day they cut that EL Cheer.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I mean, it's genuinely the craziest thing to me. Like, the greatest player of all time has given you access to his list, what he thinks is best going into the EUIC meta, and you want to play something different? Why? Why?
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:Dude, because we got information! We have information now! The question is, would Tord change any cards going into Orlando?
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:toward Mike, you're not making the same changes. Like, you're not. And like, you have access to a list made by the greatest player of all time, and you feel like you should just play it. Just play it! So easy! So easy!
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:While we're talking about what's going to be popular in Orlando and whatnot I think this is a good time maybe to mention what decks what was like conversions for, from day one to day two, because I think it's a little interesting. So Charizard was 20, almost 23 percent day one but just under 19 percent day two. So You know, still the most popular, but little, not, not the best conversion. Chien Pao, while it did not make the top 8, nor the top 16, it was littered in top 32 and 64, and it had a solid conversion rate. 12. 7 percent day 1, up to 14. 5 percent day 2. Lugia basically converted equally. Arceus, Giratina converted poorly, Iron Hands converted well up from 6. 7 to 9% and then Lost Zone, Giratina also converted well from about the same 6, a little over 6%, to about 9%. We don't really have the data on the rest of the decks, but I think that's interesting. At least. So, Tina converted pretty well. One of the, one of the best conversion rates was Tina. And maybe that's, maybe that's there's always the player aspect, right? The whole Bradner group played Tina, the Isul group played Tina, we don't know too many other people that played Tina and so obviously those players are going to do well almost regardless of what they're playing, so since they decided to play Tina, Tina's numbers were strong. If you are looking for a more standard Tina list, Azul's list, I think he got like 13th or 14th, is much more straightforward.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Oh,
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I would still, I would still think that that'll be the more predominant way to play Tina. I think the, I think the Banette won't be super popular, to be honest.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:me neither. Definitely more popular than Portsmouth. But really quick. Yeah, you go, you go.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:so I think something to note and it's, it's becoming even, it's what we talked about. Like I think what people tend to focus on is the top eight. These tournaments are so big and what we talked about, like these people who were in the running to be in top eight and then they just lose one or two at the end and they just fall because maybe it's a bad matchup. Maybe they just break, maybe it's whatever. Michael Bergerac. I think he was heading into the last two
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:You go.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:he's a really good player. I talk to him when I can at tournaments. He wins his last two. I think he's in the bubble, on the bubble for top eight. He loses his last two. He drops to top 128. Yeah, he drops to 89th. Like, that is where we are at right now. And so, even though like Chen, Pao, Lugia, like some decks may not have Gone all the way. I think now more than ever is like a good time to look at these decks that finish like Yeah, they got to top 64. They got to top 32. They got to, maybe they bubbled out of one of these brackets, like these lists are all still good.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I'm not hearing that. I'm not hearing that. I'm not hearing that. Like, nah, nah. The
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I mean,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:list, the best players, they won their last two. I can go find a list right now that won its last two. Like, I'm not
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:it's a good point. Like, there's two Chiampows that lost, went into the top 8, and then didn't even make top 32, or didn't even
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:And then Lugia, that lost it's, it's to, I'm pretty, it lost to the control it lost to Burt. I, and I feel like
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Wow.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:should be favored in that matchup, and then it loses to Burt, and it drops down to top 32, or maybe even out of top 32, it's like Lugia had a chance to be in top 8, that's the main thing that I'm trying to say, like, just because Lugia was in the top 8 wasn't in the top 16, like, it's still
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I can go find you 10 4 4 1s that if they won their last two, they could have gone all the way. But, no, I don't care.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:Liam's like, the best player in history played this other deck and got better results, so it must be a better deck.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yes!
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Oh, he didn't, the opponent in top four just didn't happen to accidentally not play a little faster and then Tord, you know, kind of threw by double canding there at the end and he kind of got bailed out by, oh, time being called right when D. But no, that didn't
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yep.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:all. So, you know, it's, you know, not to take anything away from Tord, but there
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:that's, that's just faith in the heart of the cards, 100%.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yep. Yeah, the plot armor. Bradner goes draw pass.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah,
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Bradner goes draw pass for the first two or three turns of finals.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Tord, man, props to Tord for his magnificent play. He
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I mean, he plays well. We're not saying he's not playing well. But you also gotta get a little lucky too.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:Mm hmm.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Isaiah sets up the Iron Leafs, and like, this is what I'm talking about, man, like, it's not the hardest play in the world to see, that you have the grass energy, the jet, to prepare for Iron Leaf's topdeck energy, right? There is a large subsection of players who would look at that hand, and just be like, wow, I bricked, I lose. When like, there's also a large subsection of players who would then lose to Isaiah doing that because he topdecks energy, right? And they would have shoved the Charizard, and not did what Tord did, which is hit with the Pidgeot. And then they shoved the Charizard, Isaiah picks up two prizes and wins the game.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:That's true. Yeah,
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:can make so much out of these, like, terrible hands. And, you know, both players played super well. The other thing Tord did really well, that I want to at least look into, because I thought Tina was super favorite in the matchup, but you know, apparently Tord had, like, a very positive record against Isaiah. He probably did very well against Tina, in general, over the course of the event, is, like, he led with the Heat Tackle Charmander
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:I
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:yeah, it's pretty cool. It's definitely something you can get away with. It doesn't
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I know the math ended up mattering a lot in
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah well, like, he had the opportunity that turn to go Candies Aard but he didn't want to give up the two prizes, right? So, yeah,
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:I know it was a good play
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:that's very interesting. I
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:been like some Consideration of what Charmanders do you play and like for Heat Tackle seems correct Hmm
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:need to test it more, that Guardi matchup. It's maybe ever so slightly Guardi favored, it ended up maybe not being. If you don't play Heat Tackle, like, that Mimikyu kind of can easily run through you, especially if you're not running the mist. Like, that Heat Tackle is actually really important.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:That's funny. There's a lot more we could talk about for sure. We didn't even talk about Hands, which overperformed. There's other decks in here, but we are hitting an hour. So I don't know. You guys are going to Orlando. Good luck in Orlando. We will have some reports next week. And then, and then I think it chills out for a little bit and we can really digest the results from these two tournaments.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:I would really like to have another, another week before Orlando.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah. It's a really quick turnaround.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah, I, I was telling my dad, I didn't, I didn't make all my decks post rotation. I hadn't, like, unsleeved everything yet. So I have to spend, like, the first two days this week. I'd spend probably today as well just building decks. Won't have a lot of time to practice.
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:got three people over there waiting for me to finish so I can go back to testing because that's actually what we're doing. The turnaround's quick, you gotta be honest.
liam_1_04-09-2024_181846:Yeah.
m_1_04-09-2024_181846:yeah. Nice.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:How brutal was the flight back for you Cam, where you, like, jet lagged out of your mind?
cam_1_04-09-2024_151846:No, I, always on the way back I think it's a bit easier because you just stay up. I left at like 4 p. m., got back at 6 p. m. So I just stayed up, watched movies, was really tired and then just fell asleep at a normal time. So I'm, I'm doing alright.
brent_1_04-09-2024_181846:West is best. It's the universal truth of air travel. All right, good stuff, guys. The John Pauls are our outro. We will be back next week with the finalists from Orlando Regionals. It's gonna be amazing.