The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast

Mike Fouchet Top 4 NA Players Cup! Team Challenge Super Teams! Card-by-card, matchup by matchup analysis of the new BDIF: RS Urshifu

April 13, 2021 Brent Halliburton Season 1 Episode 36
The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
Mike Fouchet Top 4 NA Players Cup! Team Challenge Super Teams! Card-by-card, matchup by matchup analysis of the new BDIF: RS Urshifu
Chapters
The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
Mike Fouchet Top 4 NA Players Cup! Team Challenge Super Teams! Card-by-card, matchup by matchup analysis of the new BDIF: RS Urshifu
Apr 13, 2021 Season 1 Episode 36
Brent Halliburton
Transcript
Brent:

Yeah, I thought, I thought we'd do team challenge and players Kopisch stuff first. What do you want to talk about? We can talk about when we get there. Let's just jump right in. all right. We're jumping right in. Welcome to the trash fleets, neighbor and Halliburton here as always with Attendance is 100%. I always say that. In terms of five star review updates. I always say that too. We have no new reviews. If you can give us a review, we will read it on the pod and discuss it. It's your way to become famous. Speaking of famous, I know I tantalize you guys with amazing tidbits. Last week. I have two new tidbits, thanks to this random email that I get. We were, we were a hundred and 70th in the Apple podcast games for the United States of America this week.

Mike:

That's pretty good.

Brent:

Yeah, that's better than a, that that's a bigger country than Canada. Also. We are 88th on Spotify. Taiwan's games channel. So whoever our Taiwanese listeners are, we salute you.

Mike:

Keep it up.

Brent:

Yeah. And go Taiwan. I don't know if that's one. I mean, I feel like it must be two or three.

Brit:

Yeah. Some, I did that a big Pokemon event in Taiwan a few years ago. I'm dying to go back to Taipei.

Mike:

You went to Taiwan for, was that one of the, was that one? The one that Sam went to as well?

Brit:

I didn't, it wasn't a, it was, it wasn't an official, there wasn't an a card game event. Exactly. It was like a, it was like around the time, cause it was kind of a big deal. But one only has been printed in Mandarin. Really not very long. So this would have been 20, it was December of 2016. I mean, I think it was really, I think that year, cause I remember too at the time when I was doing the six prizes coaching, I, I had someone from Russia and they had like also just officially started getting the product printed for similar reasons. Just incredible like black market trade ended up being that there was never a, no, they just didn't poke them on or their distributors never would deal in the country. But anyways, it was just kind of like a big photo op more than anything. I like ran at 10 K. I was visiting my sister and my sister studied abroad there.

Mike:

Ah, okay.

Brit:

but it was really, it was a good, a good experience. It was a lot of fun.

Mike:

Nice. That's cool.

Brent:

I assume you just ate your way across the country.

Brit:

yeah. Every day. Does the cool thing about Taiwan, Taiwan, Taipei, or as, or Taipei specifically is known for like these night markets, which is just these open air vendors that have lots of cool like gifts and stuff, but mostly for the street food. It's awesome. Awesome stuff. Except for the there's a stinky fish or no stinky tofu. I don't really

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brit:

describe it, but it's, it just smells, it tastes fine really, but it is a terrible smell.

Mike:

My my fiance Kelly is half, half Taiwanese. And so her mom is from Taiwan and so they went pretty. Like pretty much right after we were dating for a couple of months. And then she went on a trip to, to Taiwan and Hong Kong and she loved it. So hoping sometime in the future with her, I will be able to go.

Brit:

Yeah, that'd be awesome. I was thinking I'm remembering there too. Maybe a little too political for the podcast, but every time Pokemon officially recognizes Taiwan, whereas like blizzard e-sports and stuff. They're always Chinese Taipei. So go poke them on, I suppose.

Mike:

That's funny.

Brent:

All right. I also took a note. I realized after the last pod that it is worth mentioning it in case you somehow found your way to the pod and were unaware of it. We all are fairly active on Twitter. And if you're not following us on Twitter, you probably should. Mike is at Mike Fusha, F O U C H E T. Brit is at B Pybus, B P Y B a S. And I am at B Halliburton and admin, the source of them all H a L L I B U R T O N. You should follow us on Twitter. I tweet about the pod every week. I don't know how anyone else finds the pot, but, but God forbid, you somehow were unaware that there was just a constant way of, of tweets on Twitter. That's the thing, but

Brit:

don't know. It's funny in the agenda. Like how do we tell people? And it just occurred to me. I was like, well, it's pretty easy. All of the handles are our names.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. Like it is, it's not rocket science to find us on Twitter. If you haven't looked for us on Twitter, you should. That's the thing. We all have amazing tweets. Ah, guys, I saw somebody mentioned on Twitter a question I can't remember who this is and this should have been the on fire a tweet of the week, but somebody said how many hip points would wail or DMX had. And I was like, that's a good question. I should ask Mike and Britt about the power creep.

Brit:

I mean, I think the, the situation is actually that the power creep has crept too much up to Whaler that I don't think it would be too significant. Like, you know, like how, how much more could it really be is what I'm saying. And like, you know, well, Whaler does like, never that good. And so historically, you know, Whaler DX 200 HP never heard of too big, but now, you know, everything has 300, three 10. So I would think it would maybe just have a little more than the current V Max's or at least that's like the novelty of the other way alert card does, is that at least it's just like. It's funny because it's a, it's a one Prizer that has a ton of HP. Like the frost MarTech is pretty silly even even though it doesn't see a whole lot of play, that would be my dad. I would say I would, I wouldn't expect more than 400.

Brent:

Yeah. Just remember it's way, Lord V. And then you get most of the max. So I assume the V is very big. And then the BMX is even bigger.

Mike:

well, so we already have Willard V Willard V has two 80. I was just looking that up. So, yeah. And then I was thinking like the last big Whaler card was that the tag team, right? The way Lord magic cart that had 300 HP in comparison, like the average tag team had like two 50. Right. Most of them were like two 40 or two 70. So if you think about it that way. Yeah, probably, definitely not more than 400, maybe like three 83 98, three 90 feels like a weird number, but I could see it. So maybe in that range, three 80 to 400 would be my guess.

Brent:

Yeah, I, I was ready to draw the line at 400, 400 with my like, like gut reaction. But I like, I like how Mike kind of tried to bring science of car design to the conversation that turned out to be better than I thought it was going to be. Guys, what, why don't we talk about team challenge for a minute and just talk about where we are with team challenge. Mike, congratulations. People seem incredibly intimidated by Maplewood hobby.

Mike:

Yeah, I saw wham Bold's tweet after our our match. It was, so I said last week it was really close. Right. We played against the three ADP's. They had a sweat in, but we pulled it out narrowly. But yeah, this week was not really very close. We won, we won five, Oh, I guess 600 technically. So I brought Hershey Fu Justin brought peaker I'm again, we'll brought ADP again and Kettler brought mad party. We had Kettler sit out with the mad party. Our opponents brought in ERSII food that they sat out. So the three decks that they did bring were Turnitin, tempos, ARD and ADP. Yeah. So it turned to his temperature at ADP versus our Hershey food, Pika and ADP. So Yeah, my, my games I beat or I beat the alternatives. First set was really, really straightforward. And then I played ramble in the second round and heap was playing. The tempos are, and he didn't run you. Our first game was super, super close. I'm not sure if he misplayed at the end, I felt like he did, but I don't know. Maybe it couldn't have done something else. But it was still super, super close game. He almost took all six prizes in one turn. Basically he like damaged to the max is very, very heavily. One of them was only a good and ping away from dying. But I was able to, to, to pull it out narrowly before losing and then, yeah, Justin and we'll also to ode. Well, actually, I think we also didn't drop any individual game. I think we two owed six matches. So it felt pretty easy. But you know, we, we ran well, we had, there was no bad match-ups so yeah, so, so w what went really well?

Brent:

So, so I, I have a comment and then I have a question for you guys. So my, my comment is I get the fee, like, as I like watch the reactions to Maplewood stop and gamble, I felt like maybe few people feel like Because there's more games and there's more players and the decks are like changing week to week. People feel like maybe there's, there might be like less RNG as we drive to the final outcome of the team challenge agree or disagree, like, like it almost feels to me like there's an air of inevitability about maple woods, a victory, because they're like that you play so many games per round and, you know Maplewood just has good enough players and good enough decks that like things can't go, it's hard for things to go off the rails to cause maple with.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean, I think there's some validity to that, but I mean, if you believe that, then you would have thought that all of those other teams that we talked about last week that got knocked out would probably still be in and they're not. So

Brent:

so, so my next question is. W is this, are we going to recreate the NBA for the next team challenge? It's just to be super teams.

Mike:

I think that would be like a much better idea if they didn't tie these teams to stores and they kind of just allowed people to pick their own teams. You wouldn't run into the issues of people not submitting their lists and, and all that jazz. At least for the summer one, they are not changing anything for sure. Like they're already running the qualifiers for them. So maybe organizers will try to kind of do what drew did, which was like, you know, message 10 players that he is friendly with and get them to play in their qualifiers and see how it shakes out. I mean, like there was more than just us four people playing in, in our qualifiers. It just so happened that, you know, it just so happened that of the four qualifiers with the, you know, eight to 10 people that were playing in each one, the four of us won. But Yeah, I don't think that's happening for the summer one, but I like that idea. I think it would be much

Brent:

see, I just wonder if you could have like the LeBron James version of that, where, where, like Britt says again, I'm going to call Dustin and I'm going to call Colin and they're going to go to my local league this weekend.

Mike:

Yeah. I think that'd be super fun.

Brit:

I mean, I think it does just like my case point of that. They, they just need, they need to do that because it just feels a little shady to try to coordinate that now. Like, it just seems like you would have to just like. Yeah. Either get really lucky or do something like have a really hush hush one, somehow he is relevant to you. Don't announce that don't say anything about it and hope nobody just like is signing signing up for them at random based on what the solicited on Arcanine. But yeah, I similarly am interested just like, w I've been saying, like, it was a really fun format, but I don't know. I'm not super interested in just qualifying for a random story again. And maybe I can like, maybe just get lucky, hopefully just like, I don't know, play in one where just after someone I know, like wins one and then I'll just play in the rest of those and just hope to get lucky, something like that.

Mike:

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. I am not even planning on doing the summer one, like me, actually, me and will both said that we're probably not going to, just for me, it's like, it's nicer out the world, opening up a little bit. I'm moving. So I'm going to be busy with that. And I just, I don't think I'll be able to commit like two to three hours every Saturday or Sunday to do it. But maybe if they changed stuff up and they still are doing this thing, my guess is that. We talked a little bit about like the online events and last week. And if they're going to stick around, my guess is something like this would not stick around, but we'll see, I guess.

Brent:

Oh, like a thing they were trying to kind of do for it to do something for the stores.

Mike:

Yeah. Which is so ironic. Like, cause I think it's like if I get that it's for the stores, but it's also a lot of work for the store organizers. Like all of the match scheduling is on the Tio and not the players. So to some extent you're creating work for very little gain, especially at this point when there's only four people benefiting from you know, benefiting from that work.

Brent:

Right, right.

Brit:

I think we've talked about that before. Just like it's a whole, a whole lot of work for, for for, in Pokemon. Isn't doing any of it. Yeah, I think similarly, like I, I was, those were basically my exact thoughts that I was going to sit out this next one. Mostly just for these reasons, just unless I just happened to stumble into like a good group, which would, which would be great. Like maybe I'll just play in the Getty ones or something like, just like what, like a play in a local where just like the people who are trying to qualify or like gonna be competent, like overall, just like a store that's like has a good scene in general. Like even if you don't necessarily know all the players, it's just a place where like, like an actual local game store, I guess, is what I'm trying to describe. They're just kind of rare to have those environments. Now we just so many players just kind of show up for events.

Brent:

I mean that's, I, I know I've always told people, like, We were never big on attending our local V cause I was always like, we gotta get into your point by like, we were never like, you know what, we, we, we don't have anything to do this Saturday. So what we should just play Pokemon. Like that's what we did. All the other Saturdays. We don't have a Saturday. We're busy. We're definitely not going to do that.

Brit:

yeah, maybe that's wrong though. I'm just thinking. Cause I started, when I first started playing, like I was just a league go where it was my like Saturday morning social activity when I was towards the, towards the end of high school. I'm like just thinking about it. Like that's maybe when the game was like at its best for me personally or something, it's just no stress, you know, just pure fun or something. And so maybe that's the right approach. Maybe getting competitive is where things all just start to go awry. You're not playing Amy just the way you're describing it. It's just like, why would I play the game for fun when I play it seriously, five days a week so I can compete.

Brent:

Yeah, well, and you know, maybe our perspective is going to change. I mean, I, you know, I recognize at some point they're going to, they're going to tell me if Liam's a master now, or if he, like, you know, if they has the last two years of the senior just went up in smoke or if like, you know, we're gonna just other, but like I, yeah, obviously we were on the grind, like, so relatively early in like, Liam's time playing Pokemon. I wonder how will downshift, although having Mike move away from me is probably good. All right. Let's talk about, let's talk about players cup three for a second. Mike, congratulations for getting heads on crushing hammers this weekend.

Mike:

thank you much. I would say, I will say my, my hammer flips in that set were insane, but doesn't really matter too much. And my flips, my other games were about average.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that was about the only good thing you can really say about that.

Mike:

Yeah, it did make, it did make the first game pretty close though. I almost, I almost got there. I feel, I think like the only play like really worth noting in that whole set was when I tagged bolted in the first game. And I took out the druggie instead of like another rabbit. And I saw, I don't remember if like the chat was like saying that I was a bad player or anything, but a hundred percent the right play. Like they didn't do anything that turned before. So like if I tag Balt, Kao, Traci, and they don't have Rosa in their hand, I can actually like have a good shot at winning the game. They had Rosa. So, and, but like, I don't know that that's a hundred percent the right play.

Brent:

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, taking away the opportunity for them to get an awesome card, which is what seller wish does. Every turn basically is like, always seems like a pretty good thing in that situation.

Mike:

Yeah. Right, exactly.

Brent:

Other stuff should you say about the grinds, the top four? So I, we know you played, you played out the rest of the tournament this past weekend and we won't, when will we see that televised? Two weeks.

Mike:

Two weeks. Yeah. Two weeks from now global finals.

Brent:

So we will not pepper you with questions, although we assume that you're the world champion of Pokemon. But tell us what else, what else was worth saying that you haven't had the chance to say from your games two weeks ago?

Mike:

sure. So, so I started Five-O right. And I was in the winners bracket and I didn't get to record my games. Which is unfortunate. And so the only game you saw was me playing from Kevin side of the decision, my game, but my other two matches that weekend where were really good games. So it's unfortunate that y'all, didn't get to see that. So my first match was against will Crawford with dashi and Luke medal which went to three games. The the. Nothing, nothing too crazy happened in the set. The one game that I lost, he was kind of like a hybrid of the standard, like for research list and the, like the more recent list with the, with the heavier tag called Guzman Hala focus. So it was kind of like in between, he only ran two research, et cetera. So Marnie is super strong against the list like that. But they do play the two research. So like game two, I just remember like, I'm already in him, he hit his one research and then like two turns later I'm mourning him again. And he had a second research and I was like, well, all right. So he kind of just had this stuff. He just drew the stuff that he needed, which is not likely in the matchup. And so games one in three like I, Marnie Namanny didn't draw anything. And then I was able to, you know, do my thing set up Bolton's two to one shot stuff and whatnot. So that was the first game. Then I lost to Kevin and then winning the first game. I think I talked, we talked about it a couple of weeks ago, winning that first game was huge because it just meant I had to win one of the next two games. So I lost to Kevin with the situation, and then I had the one more winning in, but against a right, right. Yep. And so I played against Christian Chase and the peek around mirror lists were pretty close. I think he had tagged switch over the big charm. And I think that might've been the only difference in tax, which is better than big charm by a little bit. It's not a huge difference, but it's a little bit better. But we played three super close games. The one insight that I think I had while playing Christian in the peaker on mirror is this. So the conventional wisdom is that you want to. Try to take two tag team knockouts. So, you know, you try to Boston early peaker, I'm trying to shot that maybe you one shot a ride you later to shot ride to later, but really you want to avoid killing Bolton, killing a tag team, going down to one prize and then having to take out something else as well. Obviously that's just more attacks and more damage that you have to do, but you also going down to one prize, you're susceptible to stamp paralyze that type of stuff. So the issue with that strategy though, is that, that they will force you to there. They really both players, right? I'm really trying to force the opponent to knock out a bolt-in. So even if you like Boston hit a peak around, they might just switch back into Bolton and electrify again, or bolt storm, like they're going to do everything in their power to make you knock out a bolt. So it requires like a lot of it requires a lot of bosses too. Avoid that to avoid having to Kao Bolton. So in our third game, what I ended up doing was not ignoring the Bolton, just knocking it out. And then instead of chasing down tech teams, I tried to chase down like to Denny's. So you do end up going down to two prizes, but that's a little bit easier to draw out of like radars or live, then you just get an extra card in general. And so I think that strategy, I haven't really played the peaker on Mira too much since that set. But I think that might be like the generally better way to go. The other thing is like killing their first Bolton kind of takes away their OCO potential with that Bolton. So I don't know. So it's just kind of an insight that I had, like later on in, in that set and If I ended up playing more peaker on which seems questionable at the moment. It's a it's definitely a line that I would want to explore more.

Brent:

Yeah. So, so I felt like, I felt like based on your tweets this weekend we're going to have the working assumption that you played rabbit strikers Fu this weekend. Are we allowed, are you allowed to talk about that?

Mike:

I mean, I will talk extensively about the deck, but I will neither confirm nor deny that I played in this past weekend.

Brent:

Fair, fair. Fair enough. All right. So Yeah. So I think we're going to have the working assumption that you have gotten in a lot of reps with rapid striker, Shifu, you, you were tweeting about how you think it's the best deck in the format. I thought that what we should try to do for this pod is really like spend a lot of time talking about the new best deck in the format, rapid striker shift,

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

big scheme of things. I feel like there's two kind of approaches people take. And there's the list that you posted over the weekend which is the like non Chino. And then there's the Petro tour, Torres testing group, a tour direct live list. And I felt like when you said your, your endorsement of how it's obvious or Shifu is incredibly good made me feel like toward my, to played that list. And the way Pedro was talking about it felt like this whole testing group was on that. So I feel like there was a lot of. We have to kind of see, we'll get to in two weeks, see just how much these dominate the format. But, you know, we can met a manipulate as, as a pod and tell people this is the greatest thing since sliced bread and kind of break down these two different approaches and try to crack the code. Does that sound fair guys? All right. So Mike, do you have any strong opinions on where we start or do you want me to just start, like, talking about the differences or something like that?

Mike:

Well, the only thing I'll say is that like the, the base list that I think has gotten super popular with the druggie build is definitely not mine. I think I don't know who kind of had the original list, but I feel like Rahul kind of had the first like major finish with this build. And so all the lists that are doing well now are not exact copies, but I think take a lot of inspiration from that list. And it's kind of like gotten refined since then. And that's certainly where I started when I was testing it as well. So I'll just start with that, but then yeah, you can talk about the differences.

Brent:

Why don't we start by talking about your list versus like, so I guess the list that I think of when I think of the, like for Geraci list, would you say Gabriel Fernandez who came in second at the limitless tournament? Is that like good representative example?

Mike:

Probably that just happened. Like the one that just happened the other day. Let's see. Okay. That's pretty representative. Yeah. I think the the mimic you has become more common in the past four or five days. But wasn't super common before that. But yeah, I think this is pretty representative.

Brent:

All right. So you play, you played you play essentially the exact same Pokemon line. You play an extra Marnie but he's playing the Phoebe.

Mike:

Yup. So the one difference in the Pokemon line is that I do not have mute. So MuTu has been in the vast majority of lists and it's something that I think is a pretty nice card to have, but if you're not playing the tech supporters like Phoebe or Cheryl, I just don't think it's really worth playing. Like it has synergy with scoop up net, but you put, you're playing for research, you're playing a bunch of miners. You're playing the three boss and a great catcher. So like, it's nice, but it's not super necessary. So,

Brent:

It was part of like the Phoebe Sheryl package. Right,

Mike:

right. So yeah, so I don't have that because I don't have the tech supporters.

Brent:

right, right. No. So I think the big difference is they play this like really consistent item list of like four quick balls for pokey comms, for scoop ups, for switches to air balloons. Two dojo's you play a little more diverse package where you've got a great catcher, an escape rope, a stamp, a karate belt. How, how do you feel about that?

Mike:

Yeah. So, I mean, it's like a lot, it's a lot of, one of little things that I think are useful in different situations. I think if I play start playing in these best of one tournament more, I might make it a little more straightforward. The, I do like one escape rope. And so, so if you're playing karate belt, I don't think you can play to air balloon. So that was kind of why I switched to one escape rope one air balloon, because the. Like the air balloons generally want to go on the Aurora Foos. And so if you play karate about that usually means you want to put up karate belt on inertia foods. So you're just kind of go a split there, but you still need the extra switching. So you play the escape rope instead.

Brent:

Brett. If I could just jump in really quickly, how much, how much have you played this rapid striker, Shifu,

Brit:

Not a whole lot of the dry cheat build. I know. I guess two weeks ago I voiced my initial concerns and I like that list was certainly missing just a couple of the tech Pokemon that I do really think clearly do flush it out and do answer these more problematic, problematic match-ups. And like with the Phoebe coming in the list now, too, you've got the Phoebe MuTu package seems really good. LMC is not, you know, probably can't deal with that, but I haven't played too much, too much more of it since. And it's kind of you know so kind of have the thoughts that I express. Like sometimes I just didn't know what to do, like option wise, but you know, obviously just wrong at this point and I'm just, that's why I was looking forward to part of this episode. So I can just like start to listen and figure it out. But I don't think I was too far off. The main thing was just like, The Mimikyu and the Garrett, Tina pretty big. And I didn't have those initially, but I have been playing with the CIN Chino build since the YouTube video, the limitless YouTube video that went up on Saturday, I think just because you know, I just reading between the lines, it just sounded like, okay, he's posting this video. I bet that swept toward played. You know, or at least something like it, perhaps. And so I was playing with it quite a bit. I don't don't think I've quite figured it out, but it does feel like I can get, I get sort of yeah. How it works in comparison to the other list. I think just obviously with CIN Chino, you're you have a little more of these like slower options with Sheryl and things like that, but I just don't know if I'm sequencing right in the early game. It's kind of just like, not as linear, I guess, to set up. Cause like with Geraci it's just kind of easy, like get the cards you need or get your out of the active, if you already have the cards that you need. Whereas here it's just like, do I get. You know, how many Chino do I want out early? Should I be prioritizing him in Chino here? Or do I want like another of the viz, the basics on my bench and so on.

Brent:

Yeah. Well, I asked just because I think I did the exact same thing you did. I've only played with the Ticino list. And I think what Mike just said kind of spoke to me and that like, there's definitely been moments where I drew the karate belt early and I was like, well, I'm just gonna put it on this earth Shifu. And then, and then I have all these problems switching, cause I can't find a bird keeper.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

So, so the idea of like slapping an escape, Roper switch effect in there, it was definitely something I felt like I saw in my testing. I was like, just sometimes you have like you just a little clunked up and you're like, we got to get out of the accent, you know?

Brit:

Yeah. Definitely. A lot of the times, I just feel like the net just like ended up just being just useless just only for that just awkward pivoting effect. And weren't actually sort of like, No necessary cards that would have just been on maybe perhaps better just like, as you say, as some escape ropes or something like that.

Mike:

I didn't even realize when I first saw that Chino, this, that it didn't run any switch. Like

Brent:

Yeah, it's all just like burn keepers and air balloons. And they're like, you're going to get an air balloon on something you're going to play a bird keeper, and then you that'll be fine. And like, it was like that, wasn't always exactly what I wanted to do. Or, or, or are you going to air balloon and then you play a scoop up kind of to your point, like you get, you have to like have a plan to find a scoop up. And I was like, you know, having a fifth item-based switch effect seems like it might be nice. It definitely felt a little bit lean to me from time to time.

Brit:

yeah, I felt that way, like in the, like maybe in comparison with like other decks, like. Or beetle is probably the best one. I don't, I don't know if anyone really considers talks about flagon as being legitimate deck anymore, but that's a Decker that plays lots and lots of bird keepers, but it just like works a little bit better because of just kind of the, all the other things that you're doing. You've got the robo substitutes, you're drawing a Snorlax every turn. So it's just like easier. And the switching is sort of equally conducive to either deck strategy, but like, or B it'll just doesn't need to attack or B it'll has all these kinds of like other Stolley options to it. And so you have like more time to find the switching cards, whereas like Hershey, who is far more proactive and you're, you know, you need to switch when you ha in the tempo. Whereas sometimes with the word beetle, you're just like, You only get one effect off in a turn let's say, and you don't, you don't overextend to get the second one because you know, your deck has other things that it wants to do. It doesn't win by doing just the spread. It does it by doing the spreads strategically. Whereas there you're just like needs to get in there punching hard each and every turn pretty fast. If it, especially against like an ADP matchup, you have to hit start hitting hard, fast, and that match up to keep up. Otherwise it's just kind of the, the VMX game that we always described where, you know, it's just like a function is like, if they all ultimate rate you, you lose next game.

Brent:

Yeah. So, so long story short, the big, the escape rope. How, how did, how did the great catcher in the stamper work out for you in that testimony?

Mike:

So great catcher is actually in most of other people's lists as well. I guess it's not in this limitless second place list, but I think that's fairly common. It is something though that I really questioned and still continue to question. I think if you didn't play great catcher, you'd either want to play MuTu or a fourth boss. I do think you want like that extra Gustin option. Not always convinced that great catcher is the best thing, but it does give you the option to like, you know, Juniper and get it. It's mostly useful in the tag team match ups to like either pull up Rashid's art or a Mewtwo. And obviously to Denny is like a prime target, but yeah, it's pretty good. But you could easily swap it with another guest and option. The reset stamp I think is great. You don't use it every game, but I think just having that. Option is really nice in this format. I've seen ADP is really start to play a lot of resets, like one reset stamp, and it's been game-winning at different times. So yeah, I think, I think reset stamp makes a, at least a lot of sense. And I like it a lot. The karate belt, I kind of go back and forth on, I think it gives you some pretty good options, but in a list like this, it's, it's a little bit harder to pull off in this list. I think it's much easier to pull up and mention Chino list.

Brent:

That seems about right to me. Are there other things that we should talk about in terms of comparing your list to like the limitless list?

Brit:

one of the things, the main thing I think that's worth addressing, I think between them is like where, where if at all, do the match ups differ. Cause that's just clearly the deciding factor on why you would choose one over the other. And my initial reaction is. I would think that the Geraci very well, no, I'm going to stick with that. I would think the draggy version just strikes me as being better in the mirror because it's faster. It doesn't, it's not, you know, it can play a researching finish its turn, which the other deck is just doesn't seem like it thickens. And I guess I've played it so I can speak on it, but it's not quite as capable as coming out of the Gates quite as fast. I mean, you can certainly like the earshot through that's I guess part of why it's so good as it is minimal. Like if you, all you need is the bird keeper on your first turn, around your second turn in and energy and after evolving and you've kind of done what you needed to at least in the early game, but like with Geraci and nets and all that, it just comes out swinging more consistently, I would think. But otherwise. Nothing really strikes me as being different, both, I guess, in theory, aren't great against this MuTu deck, these MuTu decks that are kind of floating around as counters Turkish of food, but otherwise it seems about the same to me.

Mike:

Yeah, I've been trying to figure that out too. I've played, I've only played like a couple, I don't know, maybe like 10 games, the Chino list. I'm not sure about the mirror yet. I think you can make an argument both ways. Like I like your argument about the drag you and be more aggressive on the flip side. If the game goes a little bit longer than that, you and Chino list had Cheryl, which most of the Dracula's don't have in Cheryl is very good in the mirror. Cause it's often that, you know, to Hershey foods of all take 150 damage, and then you show that off and it's really hard for the other deck to keep up. I think in your good match-ups, there's not really a big difference peek around maternity lists. I think that gen Chino version is slightly worse against ADPD because you're a little bit less aggressive and CA and like the name of the game against ADP is just keep up. You gotta attack, like every turn starting from turn to and I don't think this deck does that quite as often. And the other, so the other major difference is that the chinos does not play martial arts dojo, which I think severely hampers your ability to compete with some of the other V max decks, like by two shouting them. So like against big teeny V max, for example, you want to do. 106, you need to do three 10. So you can do that with this execution. Right. But you could also do that with doing like one 50 or one 60 with the first attack and then follow it up with the G max attack with the dojo and still getting the one shot. So I think that's a pretty big difference as well.

Brit:

Yeah, I'm thinking too, just as a general talking point, maybe, maybe we can wait for this. To a point in the discussion where we're talking just more specifically about mattress, but I'm just really trying to play out the ADP matchup in my head. And I, I can't quite solve it just because the math is just doesn't ever quite seem there. And obviously I would think that's where his executive comes in occasionally, but could you walk, what's your strategy? You want to hit an ADP for one 50 and then, and then what? Like, I'm just, I'm not quite sure

Mike:

so generally you want to go. So that the game gets, let me just say, the game gets really hard. If they don't play the denier, Chromat down. It's very hard to win that. But most of the time they have to so generally you want to hit the first ADP or hit the ADP for one 50, one 60. If you have a dojo then you want to use the second attack to do one 20 to kill the ADP. And then one 22, like, or ideally they'd have like a Denny on the board or to DNA on the board and you go like one 20 on a DNA, and then you can just win the game by Boston up the other DNA and doing one 20 to that faster than you need to win most of the time. Usually you have one extra turn, so like you can Do like a, like one you can do the one 22 is ashy, and then you can follow it up with a one 50 to knock it out, and then you can boss of the DNA and, and do that. So I'd say that's generally the two, the two lines that you gotta take.

Brit:

yeah, that makes sense. I just do a lots of, and when I'm out of practice, I do have lots of brain fart moments. And I forget that obviously it's like, how do I, how do I knock out the DNAs without having to hit them twice? And obviously you just hit one hall. It's active with the psych attack. I just, you know, that just hadn't clicked with me for embarrassing reasons, I suppose.

Mike:

Yeah. So like an ideal, like an ideal game goes like you go first, they don't GX attack. You hit the ADP for one 50, turn to you, gust up a Danae, kill it, and also kill the ADP, like on the bench. Now you've already taken five prizes and they. Have just, they haven't even ultimate raid. And then you just like to shout association or kill it to DNA or something like that. That's like the that's like the most ideal. It doesn't happen that way. Most of the time, the thing, the thing that really sucks about the matchup is that you have to, my wife was actually like really bad, like re or really good against you because you almost never want to play like your DNA's or CRO bats. And so you just ended up having them in your hand quite often. And it's pretty easy for them to my wild and down, or at least I've found it. My wife seems more effective against Hershey food than, than other decks.

Brit:

Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess the, I don't really have any clue on how you would interact with. A single strike or shifts too. I could maybe see that not being great. I guess I do have, I guess let's talk about that next, because I, there was another deck I thought about as well, but how would that yeah. How does it, do you know, have any idea how that metric goes? Is it just not worth it?

Mike:

Yeah, I've played a little bit. It seems like if if they draw well, the single strike crowds. Well, it's really hard

Brit:

I mean, that's, that's just, that's how it looks on paper to me. One thing I have noticed in the trend, the just results of the past week, I've just been really an uptick of not maybe a great one, but I've seen a lot more like really boom, and I guess really boom has a good Hershey food matchup, right?

Mike:

I would have to assume so. Yeah,

Brit:

That's

Mike:

just because they.

Brit:

the only reason why I would think it's seeing any play right now is it's just, you know, kind of like we say, like, I mean, I guess in the MuTu is kind of as much as other decks are countering it just with weakness, but it's just like tangentially good against it. Like the executor doesn't seem all that bad and like really boom, just the, like the math is awkward at times and you can heal and stuff with the executor.

Mike:

Yep. Yeah, they can heal like the, they, the, the Mimikyu is not full-proof against them cause they play Maulana. So like, even if you just like goon ping it, they can Maulana that damage off and then one-shot shoe. So yeah, that's tough. Well, yeah, the other big difference is from the Chino list and the draggy list is Chino list does not play Geraci GX. So they they just have the Mimikyu to deal with the MuTu stuff. But that probably, that makes like your mad party matchup way worse.

Brent:

I assume as a med party is just unwinnable.

Mike:

with that list. Yeah, I would think so. And my party's like not a terrible matchup for the, if you play drag EGX, like you just, if you're, if you're able to kill their muse early on, you just, you're taking two or three prizes, then every other turn.

Brent:

Yeah, well, and, and like, like they, if they have like awkward hands and you're able to like take knockouts with strafe and like goon pings, you can be like, Oh, we're kind of like squeezing stuff out, but it's, it just seems like if both players have, you know, kind of get what they want, you're just going to get smushed.

Mike:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean maybe, maybe they can leverage that shin Chino attacking well enough. I'm not too sure,

Brent:

Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, the question is, you know, how far can you get hidden for 40? And like, if they have, if they have like the wrong attackers, like, you know, each turn, you're like, we're getting there, we're getting there.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

But if they don't like, it's going to go back So, so I mean, you talked about the value of Geraci man, I recognize the, the trade-off there is like the Sheryl Phoebe MuTu package any conclusions on that? I mean, it is Cheryl Phoebe MuTu, like the way people should play this.

Mike:

I don't think Phoebe's that good. I think your Luke metal matchup is still pretty unfavored even with DB, it makes it like winnable, but I think like Phoebe is mostly useful actually against decidua and I don't think decidua is actually all that good now. So I don't know. I don't really feel like it's worth it. The Sheryl is a little more interesting because of the mirror match and the potential that it has there. So I dunno, I, I got to test more. I'm really interested in testing the mirror match, like draggy version of strategy version, and then Chino versus Chino and the crossover between them. Because I feel like there's lots and there's lots of lines of play that I'm not a. Necessarily aware of right now? It seems like a pretty, could be a pretty intricate mirror match.

Brent:

I liked that you said that the LMC matchup doesn't get that much better. Hey, Ken is the same way Brent was asking. Can you walk us through your thinking around that for a second? Cause yeah, no lie. I bumped it a ladder and I got bodied

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

I recognize like for me the second day, full metal wall and start slapping goggles down left and right. I suddenly, you know, I mean, Brett, I know this is your move, but I'm like I classic brain fart. I have absolutely no idea how much damage I'm doing at any given attack anymore. like, it's a random numbers. I hope if I attack enough, he dies.

Mike:

So. A couple of things. The basic is a pretty good attacker in that matchup against the Zanta. So we're working on the assumption that they're going to be going for double as Amazon into right. Maybe, maybe a full metal wall and to, into doubles Amazon it. So you're going to have to deal with that. The basic is a pretty good tax rate, you know, one 50 for three, but was into discard your special energy. So you get maximum four of those attacks off in a game and they have Maulana, they're reducing 60 damage, every attack. So that's not going to quite get you there. So the Phoebe does give you a chance because you know, you're allowed to then attack for one 50, but it also takes up your supporters. So you can't like boss's Emma's into and Phoebe and hit, which is pretty inconvenient. What else. Just Maulana is really hard to deal with in general. You're switching your switch cards are like super premium since you have to attack so many times you're gonna run out of switch in that matchup, like pretty early on. And so you're like forced to balloon your guys, but they also have tool scrapers. So if they tool scrapper that the right time, like it's I don't know. There's just like a lot of super awkward, like any Luke metal versus anything. It's all about resources and conserving them and using them properly. And it's just really hard to do that. While switching and like saving your mute twos, your like your scoop ups or Phoebe over and over again. And it's just much easier for them to to like replenish themselves with Intrepid stored and hide behind dolls. And yeah, like it, it's just, it's really hard.

Brent:

Like w w when I tested against the situ, I was like, okay, I can see how you get there. I still found a way to bungle it, cause I didn't manage my resources quickly enough. And he found an energy every turn without fail, which made me sad. But and when you're playing them in Chino builds, they can just target down to chinos. And in that respect, it makes it a special on you. Versus the, like the Geraci builds a little bulkier at least that's my impression having never played it, but, but there you go. I was just sad. Every time it shouldn't, you know, died. So let's, let's talk about the, the European bill versus your list. Any like top level reactions.

Mike:

I mean, we talked a little bit about them already. Like the dojo is as a huge difference, not having the dojo because just your math can get a little more awkward. Like in the mirror, you can't ever one shot or two shot inertia few then, but in the mirror, if you do have dojo, you can. Cause if you go down, you're doing one 90 plus one 50 that's enough. So if you time your dojo, right, you can, two-shot a V max in the mirror, but you don't have that option. And it's a list that usually will go down. So that's like another interesting aspect of it,

Brent:

So one big difference is that they play a lot more, well, not a lot more, but they, they play the four capture energies and they've essentially cut three of the fighting energies for more capture energies. Any reaction to that guys? I, I don't know. I felt like. I felt like there were a lot of times when I didn't need the capture energy. Although when I had the capture energy turn one, I was like, well, this is a great way to get them in Chino app.

Brit:

That's my impression too. They're so useless. If they're not on the first turn that's yeah, for sure.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. Like that, that's basically how it went. Right. And like, like every once in a while you were like, okay, this'll be that like second attachment. I need to be able to like discard energy off the BMX.

Brit:

Yeah. That's like the, you get, you get lucky and just accidentally get two of them in a row after attachment that fighting already. Like sure. It's pretty good then, too. But for the most part, I've had games where I've, I've, I've missed, not a lot. It is a very, it's a consistent list. I think where the, the, where the deck loses is just in the construction of the deck. Like it's built to do very specific things. It, and it, it just, it just, like we said, it skipped some ad party, cause it doesn't have Geraci and so on. But yeah, I've, I've had a few games where I haven't captured energy and not the fighting and this

Mike:

Yeah some games as well.

Brent:

how did you guys feel? So you, obviously they run to re reset stamps and then we see like a lot of the main lists, not running any reset stamp at all. You were running the one and any opinions. I don't think, I don't know if there's something

Brit:

I come back to this quite a lot and I'm not constructing too many lifts, but it's just so good. And I even seeing like, you know, ADP is really one of the only decks that just never seems to play at, but even still it does, it just, you know, like in the, I'm thinking of like the center scorched lists that like really just settled on one, even though for the most part, like, you know, that was always kind of a big difference between Alex Szymanski is LISC and like cash and Thomas Brophy's is that they eventually like cut the stamp for the great catcher, I think ended up kind of being the final change in that list. And it's just like, the one is just too good. Not to play. Even if you play lots of discarding cards, I just like, I. I don't think I can force myself not to include it in a list right now. Like maybe mad party, like decks like that. Don't I can see, you know, not really bothering with it, but just everything else. It's just so powerful. You can just win. You can just win so many games if you happen to have it at the right time, especially like an ADP when you play Skyla too. Like, I think I would definitely play it in and that's just kind of the thing. Whereas I think that gen Chino build maybe can justify playing too, because it isn't nearly as aggressive. And so you're going to play both of them because you're the slower deck and you're going to be coming from behind in certain match-ups. Whereas the other one, like probably doesn't want to play too, because it's more aggressive because it just like might disk with the two you just end up discarding one and you just play one anyway. So why not just kind of roll the dice with it and save the spot.

Brent:

That's funny. I, I, Mike, I don't know if you have a reaction. Like I was actually wondering if I would be willing to cut the second to put in another switch effect or, or the martial arts dojo, because I mean, this deck, you like really control your discards, right? Like it's all about like building hand sides and just accumulating cards. Like you're never going to research. You're rarely going to day-to-day. Like, I was like, you know, the times what I had. Two stamps in my hand, like it was a fair number I could probably get by with one.

Mike:

Yeah, I agree. I think like the argument part of the argument is you might use the one stamp is like trade fodder at some point. But yeah, I think you could probably drop to one. The other argument that I have for stamp is even in the draggy version is that this is a Marnie deck like peak rom it's a Marnie deck or shampoos and Marnie deck. I turned this as a Marnie deck. I think those are the, I guess Luke metals and mining deck as well. Any of these Marnie decks I think gains a lot more plain stamp than non Marnie decks because you're already forcing their hand size lower a couple of times per game. Just with the Barneys. And so they have to expend resources to get out of Marnie's sometimes. And so by doing that later in the game, when you reset, stamp them to, you know, even if it's three cards, two or three cards, the odds of them drawing out of it are significantly lower because you've forced them to try and get out of Marnie a couple of times. So I just think that's worth noting when thinking about putting reset, stamp in a deck. And I think it's a good argument for why you would include it in, in any Hersha food list. That's running a bunch of Marnie's

Brent:

Yeah. Now their list was only running two Marnie's compared to your list. And I assume most of that's because they feel pressured to play bird keeper, every turn. So they're like the turns then you can play. Marnie are just a little bit, few and far between.

Mike:

Yeah, I almost like, I kind of want to play research in that list. Like maybe just take out the Marnie's for researches. Cause I find the games that I felt like were the hardest were when I was getting marinade and like maybe one maybe only had one Chino up and I got Marnie, Don, you know, turned three and then I'm like, I drove four cards, plus my draw. I got to trade one time, but I don't want to play this to DNA down. And I didn't draw bird keepers. So my hands only like six cards and like I could get out the max or I could get out another Chino. And it's just like, if you're not holding onto your large hand, it's much harder to, to play that deck. So having the option to, even if it's like only one research that you can like MuTu back, I don't know. That seems like something I would want potentially.

Brent:

Having that played your list? Like I felt like there were a lot of times, like I was not. Playing the day-to-day like, partly because I didn't want to like put the prices down and partly because I felt like my, I was just super champer bench space. Like you, you got your, you're trying to, you're trying to set up to 10 chinos. You're trying to leave a spot for a, to your, or zigs ago. You have a Geraci out, you have an earth Shifu out and then you're like, Oh, like that's the whole, that's everything. Like if I, if I play those day-to-day down, then I can't play on YouTube. There's exhibits that for this I'll be bench luck.

Mike:

Yep, yep, yep.

Brent:

Is it, is it like that with the Geraci heavy list?

Mike:

It's not quite as bad, but it's actually a big, it's a bigger effect than a, than you might think. Especially if you're playing U2, it's just like you have all of these guys that want to be useful with scoop up net. So you always feel bad discarding them, but. So sometimes you like, depending on the matchup, like if I'm planning as to turn test, for example, and I know they play weak energy and I have a guaranteed and my opening hand, but I have a, and I have to Juniper, like I have to play the Tina down so I can scoop it up later. And it feels really bad to do that, but like, you have to do it and then it eats up a bench spot and like eventually you'll scoop up it, but then it has to come back down and yeah. So be bench space is like a huge, a huge thing to think about as you're playing or HSA food in general. I saw Rahul when he was playing his limitless event, whatever, like a week and a half ago, he lost a game to peaker because he didn't leave a bench by it. So Ben got reset, stamped, hit a quick ball, but didn't get knocked out that turn. He just got paralyzed and couldn't quick ball for a DNA and ended up losing the game. So yeah, definitely. I think it is an issue even with the regular list.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. What else should I ask about these? Oh, you know, the, the other thing I wanted to ask is how'd you guys feel about the Snorlax? Like, so they, they played like one Snorlax, one Geraci and I was like, I see what they're doing. It's like, cute. I don't know if it was good.

Brit:

I don't like it either. And equally, equally, it just thought it kind of just thought it was like, you know, unnecessarily, like splitting yourself. Like, yeah. I'm not, I'm not sure what would be better, but yeah, it just feel, it doesn't feel all that. Great. I don't know how often you really use the Snorlax. experience. I don't seem to go for it too often.

Mike:

I kinda, I kinda like it. I mean, I haven't played a bunch, but because of this kind of the same, the same idea of talking about like, Your hand sizes, you play more ball search. So like your, those cards are just expendable, especially in the early game. And sometimes it's nice to just be able to drop, drop to seven. Like I lost a game cause I priced in our lax. I remember. So I dunno, it's actually something it's probably not as good in the draggy version, but it is. I was thinking about like, could I just try playing one in that, but it's probably not as good. I think it's, I like this more like style. I think it's cool. I could, I could be convinced.

Brent:

how do you lose? How do you lose a game? Because you're pressing our lives.

Mike:

Well cause I had capture energy but not quick ball, so I couldn't quick ball for DNA and I didn't have a supporter and I captured and. Was going to get Snorlax, withdraw like five cards. And then I, but I was forced to get Geraci then, and then Geraci just, didn't get me a supporter for two turns and I lost.

Brent:

Right? Right. Yeah. Like I bet I don't know if you're, this was your experience, but like, I, I like pretty consistently got in Gourmandise turn one. And then after that I was like, do I want to blow a scoop up men on this guy? Like you still have a brunch spot.

Brit:

Yeah, I mean, that was, that was my, my, my circumstances are often like such that I just like, I'm S I'm scrapped, trying to find these bird keepers in these switches. Every turn that I just feel like. The snore, like, I mean, sometimes you really do need this set up and sometimes you get those perfect hands where it's just like, you have the switching effect already and then like three level balls and you draw five or six cards. No problem. But yeah, I just like awkwardly. Yeah. And bench limited then. And then when it also by using the net, I'm just there by have one less switching option. And again, just like, if you are struggling to hit the bird keepers here, I just have to really be conservative with them too. So yeah, maybe the answer is just like the reset stance. What I was trying to explain earlier was why I just thought it was logical for the chin Chino to play too. And the other version of play one, I think you could definitely cut one for sure of and do things always, even, even in the Geraci version. I just often feel like I need more switches or just one more

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, I guess like one of the weird things that when I think about my like Snorlax experience, I think I contrast it with the Geraci experience, the Geraci experience. There were definitely moments where I was like, man, I miss a skateboard. Like sometimes it's awkward to be like, I mean, if you put, if you play the karate belt, then you're going to have to burn keeper to switch that or HSA food of the bench. But then if you, if you switched into Geraci and you sell her wish, like you're stuck for it turn unless you've got a scoop up in hand. Be nice. If I had another switch effect there, I feel like, I don't know. I did feel like the store lacks. I don't know if you guys, how frequently you guys use the, I hit and run attack, like turn one hit and running into the Snorlax is like, you're like, well, this is a bulky one. Prizer.

Mike:

that's true. Yeah. I mean, strict, pretty strict, pretty good attack. I use it. I've used a lot in the version for sure. It's just, again, it's a little bit harder to pull off and then Chino and just cause you play less fighting's so you don't get it quite as often in the early game. The other thing with the less fighting's by the way is that you can't even play dojo, right? Like playing dojo doesn't even make sense. Cause you only played two fighting's and conversely, you don't really get the bonus effect in the mirror match if they play down the dojo. So I get weird cause you're probably going to go down in the mirror match. So you want to take advantage of dojo so you can help two-shot their BMX, but you only have the two fighting, so you don't get it all that often. So I dunno, it's a strange dynamic. I think maybe there's like some. Other splits of energy, maybe like two captures and four or five things or

Brent:

That was exactly what I was about to say. I wonder if he cut, cut half the captures cause you don't get great value out of them.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

I wonder what it'd be like to just play, like without the, I mean, I recognize when you get a capture as you turn one, it's fricking great.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

But, but like you could, you, you know, you essentially, if you just played the same energy line that the other decks are playing, like you essentially get two cards back now. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure the European contingent has like, they came to the conclusion they came to for a reason.

Mike:

Yeah. That's why I kind of like, I just want to keep playing this list a little bit, just to understand it better before I start making changes, because I do trust that they made a lot of these choices intentionally.

Brent:

So what what other questions should I be asking guys? Or is there, is there stuff that you're thinking about when you think about this list?

Brit:

I mean, I'm not thinking about anything to particularly anymore. I think we've kind of hit it all. The only kind of on my mind topic on my mind that we haven't hit is just like the fire decks. And I just like, you know, Vic teeny, I'm trying to remember where it fell on azoles powerless from this week, but on the initial release of the set. And hypos fairly high for the card. And I do think the Vic teeny has, you know, maybe we'll be okay. I don't think the format is solved or anything like that, even if, or should feel is the best deck. When all things are said and done, but I guess like it's center scorched just dead then is my main question. Like, can it just really not compete anymore with Hersha Fu like, it seems like I understand the matchup and like on paper, it seems difficult for sure. But like with AMU, and I know, I feel like I saw right when the sec came out, people were trying new and sent a scorch. Like I think just over the bird keeper, like it was a pretty easy fix. Or like maybe you could cut the FIO or something, even since it would have to be like a, a bench Pokemon, but yeah, two questions there. I guess I was at your firearm match up for either of these decks. And then if Sonos court just done.

Mike:

I think the fire matchup is slightly. Unfavored where all the fire versions are slightly on favorite. If they play mew and slightly favorite, if they don't play mew Victoria, you just got to avoid them going first and getting boss Kao. And then I think you're in a fine spot. The tempos aren't matchup. If they play muse a little. Dicier because they'll usually go rushes, ARD, and you want to go like one 50 plus one 20 on the rushes arbiter. They have mew that makes it a little bit harder to do that. So you got to take out the new first. I think it's all pretty close though. And then sent a scorch since scores is really weird because like, if they get, I played against a senator's Kartra on ladder DD, like yesterday and they went second welder to a sentence Gorge vol Canyon did up to five energies turn to Wilder on descendants Gorge. And now they're one shouting. My V max is on turn two. And you can't beat that. That's so like, if they get that, if they get, you know, the whatever, seven, eight, they need eight energies to one shot, they get that up before you're able to hit that center. Scorch. You automatically lose the game.

Brent:

That's that a scorch things, right? Like Pokemon so big and like, so reaping the benefits of welder that it cannot be stopped.

Mike:

Yeah, but if they don't do that, if you're able to hit the send discourage before they they've built up this huge one, then yeah, usually pretty fine because they have to, they like have to play the DNA and you're able usually to kill a drought year about Canyon. So it's usually pretty simple six prizes, I guess, just in general, that kind of reminds me just the general one really broad thing that Hershfield has going for it is that it's pretty easy for the deck to only take six prizes. Sometimes you're forced to take seven where you see a lot of other decks are forced to take seven or eight prizes. Essentially, and there's a lot of wasted damage and urge food. Doesn't have a lot of wasted damage with its spread attacks and or its ability to kinda Choose where the damage goes quite often. So that I think that's part of the reason that it is such a strong deck. It's more efficient in a lot of, in a lot of ways.

Brent:

I know on this pod we've been historically dismissive of the MuTu. Well, they're decks. And yet one, one the Sunday open on a Sunday essentially it probably because most of the you know, I guess the most popular deck was private striker, Shifu and I think to your point Brit, they, they I think cache said the mew real boom had the highest win rate of any deck at the tournament. Do we feel differently about new welder here?

Brit:

no, I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I had my initial take to that list. I put it in a group chat. I think that, that Mike and a bunch of people ran the prep for the first part of the player's cup, but it's just like, it looks like fun. Like, it looks like a whole lot of fun, but it doesn't seem, it doesn't strike me as being great. Like I just look at the list, the list I want and just like, how could this possibly be Pika Chu? Like it was just, it was just my initial take and maybe we're just moving to a format where that's fine and it's kind of just ends up being a rock paper, scissors game. Maybe that's just where we're progressing. But I just think that it's just a really good meta-game call. People were all high on the deck. Like I just don't see it. It's not all that good against just like many of the other decks. Like a Turnitin is bad. You play so many special energy at any deck with gear. Tina's gonna run you over. Like maybe even earlier, if you drag a pole would be you. Cause drag of pulse is very good against MuTu. That's that's my take. I don't see it. See it being anything but a counter

Mike:

Yeah, like it is a counter cause you can build up a Mewtwo in one turn, but like the mimic, you still very, very good. If they play Mimikyu Andrew catchy, which then I think it's still like it. Like, it's just hard. Match-up for richer few and probably unfavored, but it's not like it's not like 80 20 or anything. Yeah, I dunno. I still, I just don't like the deck in general.

Brent:

Yeah. I mean, do you have to have the Geraci GX to keep it from being 80 20 or like, is there ability to essentially like welder power up of YouTube out of nowhere and smack you? Just like, I just don't. I mean, does the Mimikyu lagoon combo gets you where you need to win that match up or do you need the Geraci to like.

Mike:

Yeah, I'm not too sure. I do think, well, so in that matchup, the draw sheet is also susceptible to their own cause they can dig Ziggy in your Geraci and then your Mimikyu is shutting off your own Geraci so I think that's part of the trouble with it as well. So maybe a draft DGX doesn't really even do that much.

Brent:

Well, that's another piece they need. Ah, yeah, I it's, it's hard for me to tell how that works out. I, I obviously need to play some games for that to actually understand what the heck is going on. But I, I guess I just always have this like fear of, I mean, the only situation where I feel like I've really gotten good value out of the Mimikyu is like when the episode on North Korea, I'm like, no, you will not do that thing.

Mike:

I mean, the, the, the main, the main matchup, the Mimikyu is good in as the peak around matchup, they don't really have a way to deal with that. We could see peak around and start adjusting and playing like stealthy hoods. But I think the only way you're fitting stout the hood is if you drop some of your hammer package, which is maybe okay, cause it turned into, this is not being played as much, then your ADP matchup gets a little sketchier too. So I don't know. It'll be interesting to see if I assume peaker on will adapt somehow. I don't know if I'll be the one adapting it this time, but I'm sure I'm sure it will.

Brent:

So Brit, it sounds like it's not like Mike is going to spend some more time testing the CIN Chino bill. How about you? Are you like what's your focus? And like, do you have any predictions for Britt over the next week from a testing perspective?

Brit:

no, I'm still kind of just a little too busy. It's basically like finals week is the first week of may, but this is, this is like defense week. So this is I'll feel done after this week final finals, or I just kind of finished writing some papers. So I don't, I don't have any immediate plans to jump back in, but I th I think the chin Chino list is what I want to spend more time on, but. I, I would like to address basically everything we've said in this episode. I think we've pick quite a few you know, kinks in the armor or what have you, I would like to make it more Marnie proof you have trying to, trying to find the right word. I don't know if that's possible without a more, you know, a stronger commitment to like more aggressive draw options. I'm not, I'm not sure if that's maybe a solvable issue. It seems like maybe a bullet you just have to buy when you're committing to chin Chino, but I really liked the chin Chino and do think there's a merit continuing it. And like the drought you build really seems kind of solved to me. Like it's 57, 58 cards, no matter what. And after that there's a few options you can consider. And maybe as the game progresses, there will be a few other options that we'll start considering. But for the most part, like. What's wrong with Mikey's list. It's got it all. It's got for research for Marnie that's. That's what I look for in a list. That's why peek around. So good. And then after that, like maybe you don't play the great catcher. Maybe you play an extra stamp, like can't really think of anything, like even, maybe in Polian if we get to this point, like Mikey said, if fire deck finds a more stable footing in the meta-game and is always playing mew, like maybe you have to play in poli on or something like that, I'm not sure. But I think either version or definitely just the only I like, I want to learn to play the mirror. Like, so part of my problem in PC three is that I, I wasn't comfortable enough playing the peek around mere until maybe a little, a little too late. And so I find if I'm going to play as a stack for a PC four, I need to learn it as well as learning the mirror.

Brent:

Yeah, I, I think I mean, as evidenced, I think by the discussion of this podcast, like, I, I feel like when I saw Petro walked through the list, I was so excited about it. I wouldn't get some parts. Holy cannoli. Yeah, I mean, Zuora pod is everybody's favorite deck Russell apartment unretire who wouldn't want to play a Zuora pod decks all day long. So our pods the best thing ever,

Mike:

that's

Brent:

that was my reaction.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's certainly fun. It's definitely fun to play this deck. And I think that might be a good way to kind of like go into the conclusion of the episode, Brett. I know you mentioned a rules, replied tweet from yesterday. So do you want to, you want to say what that was?

Brit:

Oh yeah. I mean, my Brent had his submission for our, on fire 23 already, but I thought I even, I don't even remember. He was, he was responding to a tweet wasn't he? Or no, someone responded to him, I think

Mike:

Also, I think the original tweet was like, is the battle styles format already stale or something like

Brit:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his response is just like, if you think it's stale, you probably just don't like Pokemon. And let's just like what we say, or we say on here so often. And I say, people just like theorize and theorize and theorize on how to make their, their card game. Perfect. But what they want is chess. Like what would you, what you're envisioning for a card game is no longer a card game anymore. And so just like, similarly, like there are other options out there you might poke them on just might not be the game for you. But yeah, I think similarly, like, even if her Shifu is just the best deck, I don't think that that closes the book on the chapter of the format or what have you. And there's, there's just, it all always progressed. It'll always be something more to it, even if it's just minor developments. There's more to say

Mike:

Yeah, I like, I think it, and I think like that that's it's I kinda wanted to segue to that and then to the end, because like, I think there's a lot to learn about how to play this format still, if like, even at first, who is the best deck, like it's a pretty intricate deck to play. I've been playing it a lot and I still don't feel like I'm playing it anywhere near to optimally. So I think there's a lot to learn and I do think the format with everyone kind of recognizing now that earth food is the best deck. I think there's, we're going to start going through a bunch of metagame cycles now because. There's a lot of good decks. And so like, you know, Fu has kind of pushed out a Turnitin and peak rom is the best decks, but maybe the decks that we find that beat Russia who are going to lose to beaker, I'm going to turn it to us. And so maybe those will come back and then, you know, we're going to have, we're going to have cycles for sure in this format. And I'm kind of excited to see how that plays out.

Brent:

Yeah. I felt like when I looked at the limitless results of this past weekend and the fact that there were two mad parties in the top aid and there were like two, three, two MuTu decks. In, in the top eight, I was like, this is just indicative of like hard countering or Shifu is a viable strategy to get good outcomes right now. But, but like, all that means is the risk of people going back into the lab, right? that, you know, that this deck feels good enough, but like, that's not going to fix it's not just like, Oh, new mad party met a problem was solved forever. Or food gets chased out by the fact that mad party's so good. That's not the case. Anything else we should talk about guys? like there was probably other stuff, but

Mike:

Probably. But we've been gone for

Brit:

new new cards, new set coming out. I think I don't remember if we talked about any of that, but maybe next week.

Brent:

all right. We'll have Britt make a list next week. New set back in the labs. Any secret super big blood twist ideas for evolving.

Brit:

I mean, maybe just, I guess them.

Brent:

And that's where we cut the plot off right there.

Brit:

I thought, I, I thought that was maybe it, but I couldn't tell. So