The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast

Trashalanche - THE BOOK!, PC4, Decidueye & Limitless, Ice Rider card-by-card, PTCGO prices and trades, Shadow Rider, ADP Moltres, Darkbox, Eternatus, LMZ

June 30, 2021 Brent Halliburton Season 1 Episode 46
The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
Trashalanche - THE BOOK!, PC4, Decidueye & Limitless, Ice Rider card-by-card, PTCGO prices and trades, Shadow Rider, ADP Moltres, Darkbox, Eternatus, LMZ
Chapters
The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
Trashalanche - THE BOOK!, PC4, Decidueye & Limitless, Ice Rider card-by-card, PTCGO prices and trades, Shadow Rider, ADP Moltres, Darkbox, Eternatus, LMZ
Jun 30, 2021 Season 1 Episode 46
Brent Halliburton
Transcript
Brit:

I think there's the shatter shatter rider seems to be slowly taking over and the fee in the day or two that I haven't played.

Brent:

I think, that's totally true.

Mike:

I think, uh, I think this week might be the first. Time since we started the podcast that Brent has played the most Pokemon this past week

Brent:

I, I have played, I've played a fair number of games and yet like, uh, generally speaking, I would say, uh, dissatisfaction. Dissatisfaction. Yeah. Yeah. You guys ready to dig in?

Mike:

Yeah, let's do

Brent:

All right. All right. Welcome to the Trashalanche. Uh, it's Brent Halliburton here as always with, uh, Uh, we have a hundred percent attendance, even though Brit's feeling a little under the weather, a credit to the hard work of the Trashalanche. Five star review update guys. We got like, I think one, or I think we got two more, five star reviews, but no reviews left. So I guess just ratings technically, but we take those work with 31 ratings. We are, this is episode 47. So we're closing in on episode 50, you'll got to leave more ratings. If they want the ratings to pace with the episodes, we continue to grind those out. Um, I wanted to kick off the pod by talking about the book guys. So, uh, the, the time has come, uh, Britain, Mike have been in the loop on this a lot, but, uh, but, but it's time for me to share this, uh, with the, with, uh, all the Trashalanche trash heads, whatever people are, uh, that. Um, uh, the need to know about this stuff. So here is the deal, uh, besides starting this amazing pod and building Unformer, uh, uh, one of my other big pandemic goals was to write a book about Pokemon and Lowe. That book is written 250 pages of just incredibly juicy stuff on how to play Pokemon, how to do deck, building, all that good stuff, the perfect gift for someone who is learning to play or just wants to get better. So when you Google, how to launch books, they tell you the, one of the things that you're supposed to do is, uh, I have some Amazon book reviews kind of teed up for when you like do your official launch. So some people can go and, uh, um, get the book. So I thought the way I should start things, um, with the, uh, the book. Is I got to get copies of the book in the hands of people who will read it. and hopefully write something on Amazon. When I say, oh my God, the day has come. We are putting it in. And we are putting the book alive on Amazon, on Twitter. So if you are a listener of the pod and you send me a tweet or a direct message, I will hook you up with a copy of the book. If you, in, in the United States, I've learned my lesson about international. I'm sorry, international. You guys know I would put you, I good. We're big in Belgium, the Netherlands and New Zealand. Um, but I, it is very difficult to mail books there. I will, I will use the power of Amazon to get you a copy of this book. If you are interested in reading a book about playing the Pokemon TCG, uh, it will be super duper fun. 200 pages of just intricate detail on deck building a gameplay. And it's crazy. And in the big scheme of things, I recognize, uh, this is not Pokemon sanction. I do not have like the Pokemon trademark I help poke them on is Okay. with that in the interest of trying to kind of recognize is that I, I don't want to be profiting at the expense of Pokemon. I did this because it was something I wanted to do. Um, all of the proceeds are going to charity. Um, I'm pretty sure that's the national Alliance of mental illness because, uh, you know, I know we've talked to the group a little bit offline about how we can try to like, do some good stuff. And I feel like when I think about good causes that Pokemon players get behind, um, uh, helping people with depression and other kinds of mental illness, uh, and, and helping like the LGBTQ community is like super high on our. Uh, I think it's high on all our lists. So I feel like that's a good place to put a Pokemon profits, um, and they seem like a fine and reputable organization. So, uh, send me a tweet. I will hook you up with a copy. That's the TLDR that incredibly long pitch.

Mike:

Nice. That's super exciting. And I know Brett and I both read not, not the final copy has, but I'm sure it hasn't changed all that much. So yeah. So definitely recommend people to check it out, even if you're, you know, uh, um, you know, well-established player kinda know, uh, feel like, you know, how to play the game and whatnot. It's still break stuff down in a way that if you ever want to teach someone how to play, then you might ha you might, uh, you know, have a better structure on how to go about that in a, in a certain way. Or if you know someone that wants to learn how to play, you can just give them the book. Uh, there's a lot of benefit, I think, for anybody that's interested in. Yes.

Brent:

Mike's the ultimate hype man. All right. Uh, um, uh, fantastic stuff. We're going to get people books. If you were unhappy with the cards that you got in the Tweedle lanch, you can jump on the, on the book, train now and get a book. It's incredible. It's amazing. We're we're absolutely breaking the game. Um, Uh, players cup a top 16 is this weekend. Uh, should we talk about, uh, should we talk about decks? Is there anything we should say about the players cup or should we.

Mike:

Uh, I just wanted to mention that, uh, that was going on this weekend. Hopefully we'll know by hopefully yeah. Hopefully we'll be able to post and talk about who actually does make it cause that's pretty exciting. I was, you know, I'm only particularly interested in the NBA bracket for, for friends, at least. So I was looking at that a little bit. Um, Danielle to Villa I think has a pretty nice. Chance at making it the decks that he's playing against and could play against. I feel like with, uh, with the peaker on list, um, he has pretty good bracket on the other hand, my good friend, Ross who playing, uh, Tempozard Blacephalon has a kind of rough bracket. And if he has to like beat mad party in the second round, and then if he doesn't do that and goes to the loser's bracket, he probably has to play like two Pikarom. So I feel like Danny has a pretty good shot and Ross is going to have a rough road, but we'll see. But

Brent:

And those are not chilling rain decks, right? Like everybody's playing the same deck that they played beforehand. They just have incredible knowledge of what the actual like, uh, decks are going to be matched up against.

Mike:

yeah. Yeah. So it's still a battle stabs format and then the global finals, we will be chilling rain. Um, and we'll be able to talk about that more hopefully next

Brent:

One week. from today. All right. Uh, um, so I've made a bunch of notes on a bunch of decks, and I thought that we could, uh, try to dive in, uh, on each of them a little bit. Um, are there any tournament results that we want to talk about before we talk about ice rider? Shadow rider? Blah-blah-blah.

Mike:

so the big event that happened this past weekend was limitless invitational, and decidual, I just totally dominated the event. I think four people played it and they all made top eight and then three of them made top four and then it was a decision by mirror in finals. So I don't know. I don't know if you guys have seen that graph that, that kind of like meme graph that has gone out, but it's basically a sign wave where it says, you know, decision-wise a good play, then decentralize a terrible play, uh, based on various times. And. I think all the people that played decidua I made a really good call. Everybody was just kind of focused on new stuff and whatnot. And it was just a good medical, I think decentralized probably has like a place in the format just like it has in the last couple formats, but it's not, I don't think it's going to be like the dominating force of the meta-game. It just happened to be a good time for it. Um,

Brent:

Incredible medical,

Mike:

yeah,

Brent:

absolutely incredible medical props to those guys for recognizing that everybody wanted to play like the new, new, new, and as a result, they like did not have a good tenor constituent.

Mike:

yeah. And the Japanese list and it might've been other people besides Japanese players as well. I'm not sure. Uh, but kind of the new hot decidua slide deck is deciduous. Why with Inteleon and, uh, which makes a lot of sense because you're playing rare candies anyway. Um, you get to search your stuff out. Uh, you can benefit from the pink damage a little bit. Because you're disadvantaged in spreading anyway. So, and like, and, and it kind of helps against counters too. Like if you think about like a spirit two-minute Eternatus that really can get messed up by just a single ping of, uh, from an Italian. Uh, so I think something like that can really help against the counters in random decks. So I think that'll probably be the default way of playing decisions going forward. Um, so yeah, really cool to see

Brent:

Should we talk about ice rider?

Mike:

oh, you can talk about ice Radek

Brit:

I've stayed. I've stayed on a nice there. I

Brent:

Yeah. Well, it's I know, I know Britt was like really, really big on ice rider. Uh, so I was like, okay, let me, let me build it. Have you played any games at all with the Mike?

Mike:

no. So you guys talk and not all ask questions.

Brent:

I live in the dream. so Bret, am I missing the train? If I say like, so I played, I played a lot of games with it. I thought it was like, Pretty good. It was, it was one of those decks where like, kind of like ADP, like you could almost be a gatekeeper on the format because it seemed like I won a ton of games because like starting turn two, I would just hit for two 50 every turn until the end of the game. And like, they, if they weren't able to deal with that, they lost. But like if they had some sort of plan to like move the price rate a little bit like Snipes or something like that, like it was, it was extremely difficult for me to find opportunities to play boss, because most turns you're playing Melanie to get the water energy on board. So you can hit for two 50 again. Um, like, like, I guess what's funny is, uh, even in terms with like, you could play a boss, it was like, Well, if I don't the reason I would play boss, cause I want to kill this thing on the bench instead of the thing in the act of, but, uh, I'm gonna have to end up to hitting this thing in the act of any, like the thing that the active is gonna to hit me dead. If I don't to hit this thing, like I could rarely kind of figure out ways to make the prize trade better by gusting, uh, uh, anyway, like versus just like right at the hiking and then two 50. Um, and am I, am I missing anything like

Brit:

No, I don't think so. I think I've voiced all of these things, um, last week or at least definitely bits

Brent:

video, man? I, I think I just couldn't relate at the time, but now I'm like super in touch with them. Like, wow, this is like just as linear as decks get, which is weird for a deck that plays 10 Chino. Like you think it has all these like tricks and all these things you can do.

Brit:

Right. Yeah. And I mean, that's so much of what I, my initial impressions, whereas that the math is awkward. So I think that, um, again, Southern VMX, isn't the tag teams. It's these weird, these weird gay, I guess tech, sorry, tech teams are really easy. Um, your math works great, um, against them, but against the other VMX as it's just so awkward. And that's why I will have just wish I need like a 60, 60 attack. Just something like that is all the deck is missing, I think. Um, but yeah, your math, your math can just be so awkward sometime then I use don't trade failure and believe when you have to do shop, the BMX is they, their attacks are just a little better when you. Two shouting or three shouting or, you know, maybe in an adding disruption and, um, and things like that. It can get a little difficult. Um, I know too, I think last week where we were or where I was in testing and so on in the list was that, um, I liked Inteleon ice rider, but my, I didn't, I didn't enjoy the list I had and my list has gotten a lot better. Um, As have the games as have the results because the list has gotten better. But I still think that the gen Chino version is just ever so slightly better. It's just a little more consistent at the end of the day. And when your strategy is hopefully just three quick knockouts or something like that, um, you just need consistency more than you need the extra damage output and things like that. But I'll, I'll have to work on it a little bit more. I have seen, um, some lists here and there, um, from one in a group chat that I'm in and maybe another one on Twitter and like there's parts of their lists that I like better than mine, but then there's other, there's like a tiny, tiny card in mind that I'm like, oh, that card that's broken, I'm playing that card. You should be playing that card. So I'm trying to maybe marry some lists together, then maybe it will continue to improve, but. Um, I'm kind of hesitant of putting a whole lot more time into ice rider. It seems like as we might get into, it's just, um, embracing the shatter writer overlords for now.

Brent:

Yeah. I definitely felt like, like I felt like, uh, I mean, no surprise, just like random laddering and PTCGO I won lots of games, but I felt like, uh, if I ran into a, a good player or a hard game, it was like, it was pretty rough unless the path of the peak struck. And, but then like the good news is a lot of times that stuck. Like I found, I got a lot of times I would date a virtually right away. And then I'm like, okay, this is great. Cause like I had no guilt plan past the peak, the rest of the, again, the rest of the game. But, um, there's definitely like a little bit of consistency problems to list. Cause I was always. Oh boy, if I don't get that and maybe the moral story is it's totally fine, because the reason I have the day to day is, uh, you know, the turn after this, I'm going to have two or three chinos set up and everything will be fine,

Mike:

Okay.

Brent:

but until I get to chinos set up, like.

Mike:

all right. So the first question that I have as you guys are talking is why do we play all these other supporters? Why are we playing bird, keeper and Marnie and stuff like that? Why not? Just so w I guess the question is, think, think to like a Blacephalon or, or a Centiskorch deck. The only supporters they played was for welder to boss, maybe one or two bus, and then maybe they play poker gears or something like that. So why are we playing other supporters if we just want to Melanie and maybe boss sometimes

Brit:

I mean, I think some of the other supporters are bad. Like I think the ice, the capers are we're at least initially, um, hedging against right. You and right. You still like, we need our, our it's there. Um, so I don't, I don't really mess with those cards anymore. I think that that's one of the things I, I tend to notice between the lists and mine are the switching options. I feel like I've sort of gone. I really enjoy what I have and I see people waiver here and there. Sometimes they see like a ton of switch. Sometimes I see very few without very many balloon. And I think like the blooms are really good. I mean, they're probably a little bit better in the Inteleon deck. Um, but they're, they're just about as good in the chinch, you know, Um, but yeah, I know I don't, I don't want to steal it from Brent, but it's something he's mentioned in our, our chat is catchers. And I do think, I do think those would have some, um, merits, including, yeah, it's really in either Virgin. I would guess maybe the CIN Chino version would actually be the better way to play it since you you're drawing behind it too, and not just using your ability to stretch it out. Um, but that, that seems like good to me because there are a lot of games where you just lose, um, because you have, you need to Melanie and switch them somehow in the same turn and avoiding that problem seems pretty good. And honestly, I don't think you really would have to commit to for like, I don't think it would have to be so, so large of a deck sort of occupation in your deck like that ADP occasionally dabbled with, I think you could play, you just play like two. Something like that. And it would be fine. Like, I, I do think there's, there's some flex spots and not the Inteleon list. It's a lot, you're trying to fit like eight more Pokemon in the lightless compared to the Chino version. But I think I could definitely give them a whirl two or three copies in Chino pretty easily.

Brent:

How many paths of the peak are you playing in your list?

Brit:

I play three usually. Yeah. Again, I haven't, I haven't quite evolved, um, with the format, so I'm not sure how behind I am, but after last week, I mean, three just felt right to me just because when I was playing four, which is where all the lists started for me with both shatter rider and ice rider alike, the list was four. I would run into those own problems with the DNA, or I would just like arbitrarily be discarding them. Like three just felt like the right number, because I do think like with, for like a lot of the times, your first copy is just a, I'm going to hope this works, you know, there's no real strategy behind it. It's just in my hand, I'm going to get rid of it now and cross your fingers. Um, but with three,

Brent:

speaking, you're like, hoping turn one, you have it. So you can like put it down and see if the other guy has a counter. Otherwise he's for a set time.

Brit:

yeah, I mean, that's probably right. I am. Go back and forth on these things and like rarely played for tropical beach in like blessed voice. And a lot of times people would just sort of swear by for, um, I'm just skeptical and just had lots of games where I had to discard them, or I just ran into trouble because my hand was two of them and I did Dennis or something like that. And, um, and I, I see lists, I haven't paid as much attention to the, the, the shadow rider list from the past day or two, but I feel like I generally see, I see three pretty consistently and either very sure enough, these ice rider decks. And I don't think it's fine. Um, I don't know. Maybe

Brent:

So I've been playing, I was playing two in the list that I was testing and I definitely, there were some, there were definitely some games where I was like, oh, you know, I can play a path or a turn one, or I could data and have cards turned like.

Brit:

I mean, I mean, that's what I'm saying too. I think when you play, when you play for, um, You're arbitrarily using the first couple of them. Like they're just there because they're there. When, and when you have three, you still have enough to try to time it with a stay in. We're trying to get it at the right time. And I think those plays are more impactful than just the like, oh God, I'm on the first turn. Sort of will they? Won't they scenarios,

Brent:

Yeah. Uh, there's no question. So my reaction to your question, Mike is, um, uh, there's no question. You want to go first? Like you want to go first? Oh my God. You want to go first, right? Like, yeah, like you're, you're just playing a ton of stage ones and you're like, my God, we gotta go first. And, uh, um, obviously like there's lots of decks that, uh, although I feel like fewer and fewer, which just goes to show, uh, how, uh, them changing the Porter rules hasn't changed the game that much. Like, there's not that many decks that want to go second, but, um, um, Like your whole goal, I think for the first, like two or three turns, like until you get your chinos online, like you get your, uh, you know, your BMX is online. Like you're trying to slow the game down. And so like, these are just things you do to slow the game down. I don't think they have some like, super amazing synergy. Like I, you know, there's not some, I think reason that peak around benefits from playing like four hammers and four Marnie's, except that like, you know, all these things are three energy attackers. And if you get slow your opponent down for like two terms, you're in an, just an overwhelmingly winning situation, because Yeah. it kind of by definition, like, you know, the universe car design, like your three energy attacks are very powerful and you know, once they're online, they're ready to go. You're ready to do stuff. So like, if you get off that first two 50 and. And like hit into whatever it is they're trying to do. And they haven't really done stuff yet. You're an incredibly good situation usually. And I mean, it's hard for them to one hit you and if they can one hit you, you're probably gonna lose. Um, but, uh, I, and I, and learn those, we live in a time where two 50 is not frequently one hitting people. So like, if you have to hit a right of the hiking to kind of set up a knockout, like you sometimes need that extra turn. So, uh, so they put Marty's in, because they're like, Marty's, it's what people do when they need an extra turn after the peak. It's what people do when they need an extra turn, the brain keeper. I have super mixed feelings about because, uh, um, you know, like the best thing about bird keeper is if somebody tries to lack of Pokemon active, you know, you have MuTu and you could like, you grab a bird keeper, kind of anytime you want, what should she know? And like, that's the thing you could do. But like, as a switch effect, it kind of sucks because. Usually like when you need a switch effect, you're going to want to play a Melanie. And like, it's a problem. I don't know. I definitely have felt like there's games where I needed a switch effect, uh, or I needed to retreat, but I also had the Melanie that turned and, and, uh, uh, it makes me think, you know, switch items are probably much better than bookkeeper keeper is it's not a shuffle draw thing. So, you know, you, you, uh, your goal is to get big hand size and try to get generating advantage. So, you know, it's a way you could draw some cards if you didn't have them.

Brit:

Now I think too, another thing too is just that like, We as a community, as deck builders are just often very lazy. And so it's pretty clear. Yeah. I believe the template for your chin Chino. I started, it was copied from Chino Urshifu, which plays bird keeper. Um, so they said, oh, we must keep playing bird keeper because I played bird keeper, which, you know, of course doesn't factor in how much more useful it could be for inertia to deck. Um, and again, there's that soft answer, the soft responsive, like, ah, it could be good against prior to in retro, I guess. Um, but yeah, I, I CA I cut those cards pretty quickly. They're like, we got a Melanie, like you, you need to Melanie. So, so, so consistently.

Brent:

Yeah. I think the most common time when you need to switch, the fact is like, you're not sure you're going to find the BEMAX for the turn. So like then knock something out and you have to put something up and you put up. Uh, you have a choice of like, you can either put up the V and if you miss the VMX, you lose the game or you can put up a CIN, Chino and chill for a turn, and then you like, draw the VMX and you're like, well, we gotta, we gotta swap. We gotta switch. We gotta switch them. And, but, but like, you have to attach to the V because like getting two energies on the V and like hitting the Melanie is the whole plan for this turn. But you know, now you don't have that like switch effects. So you're like oil, boy. I better find this air balloon.

Brit:

Yeah, this is another thing. The power. And just going first is that you can, you get games where you don't even need the Melanie. You can just attach, attach boss sometimes. And that's that's, you know, that's the promised land. That's the Victini games that turn one or the, the Intrepid swords and the turn two thinkers sword,

Brent:

right. right. Uh, Yeah. Yeah. Like another common problem. There is like, uh, some, sometimes you you're you're, it's not clear if you should, Melanie to the active and for the third energy on it. Melanie to the bench. And because they, uh, there's like a combo where they could take a Koa on the active and you Melanie to the bench and you discard both energies. And all of a sudden you're in a situation where you're, you know, like if you miss the Melanie, the next turn, you're like, you know, the, the, the, my power to poke him on his, on the bench, we need to switch effect here. Yeah.

Mike:

Right.

Brent:

So, uh, uh, uh, it would be way better to have item-based, uh, uh, switch effect there.

Mike:

All right. My, the other question that I was thinking of is how often are you attacking with not VMX. So do you, how often are you attacking with the basic V and also. Can Chino doesn't seem like a terrible attacker if against like another VMX potentially, because what you're doing, it does 40, right? So you do 40 plus two 50. It's not really quite enough. Right. You need multiple as exhibit Zigzagoon pings to like,

Brent:

not super good.

Mike:

it. Um, do get the energy back, which is nice, but, okay. So, uh, yeah, I dunno, but I guess so both of those, how often have you attacked with them?

Brit:

Almost never, it's almost always, um, right of the, the hiking into the knockout, like it's cause the, the regular Vegas just does like one for 40. I've done that. I'm not even trying to think of any games where I've like purposefully and impactfully used chin Chino. And I don't think I ever have like the most, the most work I've ever done attack. Sorry. I got assist to Joanne. I used to lose, um, yeah, almost, almost never just two 40. If I start with it and go psycho that's that's about it.

Brent:

I agree. 100%. I mean, you know, what's interesting is like from the car design perspective, if for one energy you can hit for 40. So, I mean, even then you're like, do I want to risk having this guy get pummeled next turn for, you know, an incremental 40 damage when, you know, uh, uh, just most of the time I'm going to have to like that 40 doesn't meaningfully move the needle. I'm still going to have to hit this guy. So it's probably better off just like chilling on the bench and waiting to turn. And, and the problem with the three energy, 200 is you discard to you, you would be like, there's so much happier saying, Hey, let me chill and get the BMX out and then, and then go in. Right? Like it's a, it's an expensive attack.

Mike:

the basic V I thought it was just 200 for three, I guess. That'd be too good. It's 200 for three and discard two energies.

Brent:

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So

Mike:

okay. Okay. I didn't realize you had to discard 200

Brent:

Yeah. like, like normally I think a lot of times, like the bee attack is kind of like quote somewhere in between. Right, but like, that's one where like when you use it, it just kind of objectively drags you down the following turn. So here's another question for you, Brett. How do you, how do you feel about capacious.

Brit:

Um, it's, it's really good. I will say that I do occasionally see lists that I think played like too many copies. Um, I don't think I play rod in the CIN Chino version, but I, I do in Inteleon and I think it's very good in there. Um, and sort of as a pseudo bucket or in a way, cam be more is later in the game, something like that. But I think I just played to, um, in both lists and I find, um, there's some games where they're a little useless. Um, but usually they're good at, or, you know, sometimes you just then, then with them too, and that's never a bad thing. It's a, it's a two for one or a one for two.

Brent:

exactly the same way I played too. And I there's like you couldn't, it would be a struggle to convince me that more is good.

Brit:

Yeah.

Brent:

Like why not just play a ninth energy? Like. I feel like I've never had any problems with getting interviewed in the discard for Melanie's like,

Brit:

Oh, yeah, you can be pretty slow about it. Can you just need one to

Brent:

Yeah. Well, and obviously like, what should she know? It's really, really easy. And, you know, I think the most common thing to do is like fucking into an energy. So you could discard an interview so you can Melanie, like, it? it's really good when that's the thing to do. But in that situation happens like once a game, twice a game. Cause like the very, you know, like at the end of that turn, I discard two for two 50 and I'm like, okay, there's the energy and the discard it's.

Brit:

Yeah, I think like a lot of the time, a lot of kids. Sometimes you start with it. And sometimes this is more of your game plan because, um, you just don't want to leave your fee active if you can. So a lot of the times you just like retreat and promote a naked, a naked V evolve, Melanie attached, and it's just like done out of nowhere and you get to chum block with a CIN Chino or Snorlax, ideally. Um, those are, those words are really good turns to, I think I definitely like have more, more often. Am I doing that then? Do I have, uh, just like Chino discards water turned to usually the first gen chinos have to be, know, they're not perfect or you're trying to get something going and you you're just discarding whatever you have.

Mike:

I will say most of the lists that I've been while we've been talking, I've been like browsing through lists that have been successful, or at least in chills event that's going on right now. And most of the lists are running three buckets just to let you know,

Brit:

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I've noticed that, and I think that's too many.

Mike:

but why, like, I mean like, so you guys have been playing seven waters or eight waters,

Brent:

eight waters,

Mike:

a water. So like w like even seven water, three buckets seems better to me than eight water, two bucket, because you're just. Like you don't need that many waters in, at any given time of the game because you record them back. Right. So capacious bucket is kind of just thinning your deck and potentially finding you too.

Brent:

Uh, you know, I mean, the thing is you don't recur them back. Like you still have to find a water every turn to attach, and then you recur one back to get the.

Mike:

Okay. Okay. Yeah, sure.

Brent:

So, so it's not like, I, I, I've seen, I've seen a couple of lists that run seven water energies, and I've seen some that run nine water energies and yeah, I've seen people that run the three buckets. I just never, uh, um, finding like one bucket early is really good. Uh, because you know, then you can, uh, uh, chin Chino a water and you're like, okay, we have a water to Melanie. But like, from that moment forward, discarding water doesn't really help you.

Mike:

Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Um,

Brent:

You're discarding two waters every turn, like just through the natural course of the game. So the problem is like, I feel like I reach more points, like, you know, at the end of the game where I have like one or two waters left and deck, and I'm like, I really got to kind of manage my resources there as opposed to. Uh, like, I, I feel like you have to be careful not to jettison too much water too fast.

Mike:

Yeah. I agree. I, someone sent me a list earlier with six water and four buckets. So that's why I was thinking that like, maybe that could be good, but your argument makes sense that you still need to attach an energy from your hand, every single turn. And if you don't play enough water waters, you're going to run out.

Brent:

Right, right. Like, and you know yeah. I mean, if you, if you draw a bucket in a data, you're like, oh, Okay. I'm going to bucket for one water in the data. It's like, how much water am I going to discard here? Right. So, so I, yeah. I mean, maybe that, you know, I I've always said, I feel like I'm a guy who I think likes one more energy in my deck then, like you were a, Zol like, I'm just not as good at managing resources, but, uh, uh, Yeah. Three buckets. I just. Once I get to, uh, turn four, there's like three energies in my discard already. Like, what am I doing with these buckets? That's so like, magical that like having a water wouldn't be better.

Mike:

Yeah, it makes sense. All right. Yeah. Two more

Brent:

Um, so, so in terms of dealing with like, uh, um, uh, specific match-ups I feel like the two cards that I see people putting in lists are Phoebe for a predicable reasons and a tool scrapper.

Mike:

Phoebe doesn't make any sense to me at all. You play path to the peak, like what are you getting through or you're getting through decidua I guess.

Brent:

Yeah.

Mike:

Hm.

Brent:

I think, I think your, your plan for decision, why you played MuTu. So. We're going to Phoebe and then we're going to Phoebe again.

Mike:

Oh, okay. Okay. So it's just decidual I counter then, like, cause I was just, I was thinking of Zamazenta and pat, the peak just stops that. Yeah, I guess that's the only thing that

Brent:

Yeah. And that's what I think, I think we've seen it see a little more play lately because you know, the, the sign curve is peaking in a second. It'll trough out and every it'll dump BB and people quit again. Right.

Brit:

I would, I would think it would be enough. Like if you really need to be decentralized, I think it would be good enough.

Mike:

Yeah. I think so, too.

Brit:

you, do you do enough damage that you're, you can just, um, outpaced the situation pretty easily.

Brent:

I know no lie. And I recognize this is a Murphy's law at work. The only decidual I've been caught on the ladder, I press.

Mike:

yeah, that would be a matchup. I think we actually would use the basic one, um, because you're, they probably don't have enough bench Pokemon for your first attack to, uh, what's it called ride to the hiking that knocked them out. So like you would probably stay like as a basic V do 200, I dunno. Maybe, maybe not,

Brent:

Yeah. I mean, the problem is You still got to get three? energies on there. Right. So you're like, you know, like in the same spot.

Mike:

Yeah. I still see that.

Brent:

Yeah. Uh, so, so what you do, you can choose to discard one or two energies, Mike. So you can discard one for one 30

Mike:

Oh, okay. Okay. And then just executing to finish it. Got it.

Brent:

and then Yeah. Well, I, Yeah. exactly. And one 30 pills, if they get the decidua out, then you need like the full blown Phoebe and you got to do everything, but like, uh, uh, obviously you're, you're trying to hunt down stuff before that, like, what you'd like to do is get two or three or four prizes before you have to break out the feed.

Mike:

Yeah. I think it'd be played Phoebe. That Metro was probably very, very, very good. And what was the other credit tool? Scrapper?

Brent:

Tool

Mike:

What's the, what's the use for that?

Brent:

It's not entirely clear to me. Like I ended up cutting it for the fee because I was like, you know, on the one hand, I mean, I think tool scrapper has lots and lots of situations where it's a classic, like 60th card, right? Like it's a little bit of a luxury where you could get there without it. But, uh, um, I know like some LMZ match-ups you needed to fix the math, but I don't know if this is the case or not, and I'm pretty sure, uh, you just get slaughtered by I'm beating some LMZ decks. I've beaten some ADP decks, but I think those players were really bad. Uh, I mean, metal decks should absolutely roll over.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean the new ADP version two, which we'll talk about in a little bit, they don't play as money, metal Pokemon. Sometimes they only run one Zacian so I feel like you could still win that match up, but yeah, LMZ just seems so, so, so hard.

Brent:

Yeah.

Brit:

I think that just tool jammer would maybe be better. Um, the scrapper, like it's they've similar needs. Um, but it's just more reliable and people don't really like scrapper itself is not a terribly well-played Cartwright now. So I don't think you really have worried, but it would get your big charms, you know, maybe being annoying here, there for an air balloon. And then obviously of course, like the metal goggles is what you want it for the most, um, like hard to say, which is better. Um, I like their sort of reliability too. Um, you just, you can decide. I mean, I guess that's true of scrapper, but scrapper. Blink, if you find it at the wrong time and they find their tools at the right time, I would just kind of think that that's less of an issue for jammer. If that makes sense.

Mike:

After this discussion, I'm actually kind of excited to try it out. I've been slowly acquiring Chilean reign cards and really the two, the only like big things that I don't have now are the two Calyrex lions, which are relatively expensive, but I used to ride her. I imagine as much cheaper

Brent:

I just tried to read so much cheaper.

Mike:

Okay. So yeah, I'll probably do that next.

Brent:

That that is, that is exactly why I went there first was because it was like, it was So much cheaper.

Mike:

Yeah. I I've been surprised at how cheap this is just a quick tangent. I've been surprised at how cheap stuff is beside shadow rider. Like the multiparous and the zap dose row. I got them for like two or three packs each, I think.

Brent:

Same.

Mike:

yeah. Which, which has made the set pretty reasonable. Um, like I, I haven't actually bought any codes. I've just kind of traded some old stuff. Uh, I've played a couple of the eight men tournament's to get some packs, um, like traded some more. I had a bunch of battle styles packs, so I got to trade some of those for

Brent:

I was going to say the power of winning a bunch of tournaments and getting a million facts. It makes it easier. There's definitely some economic opportunities there.

Mike:

But yeah. So, um, I might have to spend a little bit of money to get ice riders, but we'll see.

Brent:

Yeah. Uh, you know, uh, uh, so I dropped some cash to get codes. Um, and yeah, it's interesting. I'm sure you guys saw, I tweeted out like, is there a thing people do to, uh, uh, get coats cheap these days? And, and all the people who've responded were like use code, blah, blah, blah, checkout. Um, and I was like, I, you know, these are nice people. I know them. Like, let me go see. what the deal is. Those deals are not nearly as good as the eBay deals guys.

Mike:

Oh, really?

Brent:

For anybody keeping track the E-bay deals. I actually think it's interesting guy because I definitely saw it. You saw where like I was like, oh, I can get a hilarious zap those for like one pack. Oh, heck yeah, let's do that. I can get a glare and mattress for like two packs pick. Yeah. let's do that. Um, uh, the codes, the codes were like, I feel like less expensive than codes I bought in the past. I think I got all the codes for like less than 50 cents.

Mike:

Oh, that's great. I'll have to go on the main, check it out.

Brent:

And yeah, like when, uh, you know, the, the people that were like tweeting at me, they were Hawking cones for like 75 cents each. And I feel like, uh, over the course of pandemic, the price of codes have drift up a bit. And, uh, um, and it was so reasonable. I was like, you know what? I might be able to get shadow writers.

Mike:

And then you're like, nah, nevermind.

Brent:

No, I went out and did it cause I was like, I got to know because. As I think we should discuss now, it seems like shadow writer is.

Mike:

Yeah. I mean, so Brett, you've played it a little bit, right?

Brit:

Yeah. About a week ago. I haven't sung to top anytime where the lists have developed, it don't look too different. Um,

Mike:

does seem like that the, like the Trevenant hand lock version is kind of falling out of favor.

Brit:

yeah, right.

Mike:

like the Arar version is the most popular. I saw a Juul playing the version that runs like one, one, um, how crummy V. Max. So it feels like the lists are deviating from this like hard hand lock build and trying to be a little bit more versatile, which makes sense.

Brit:

I think. Yeah. And that's just my, like my weak, my initial impression of the, whatever, the dumb copy paste acronym is for the, the hand block, the hand block version, I was just like, this is bad. What are you guys talking about? Like, it was just, I don't know. That's what you get for listening to Tate, I guess. Um, this, this sort of thing has happened before. It's just like, it's definitely super duper busted and it's just clearly not. Um, but yeah, I'm not surprised. I know that, um,

Mike:

Okay.

Brit:

I think too, that there's even a. The cross-match like, I, it's not the V I know, um, Stefan did play that in his list, which, um, I don't know how good that seems. Um, but I think there is, uh, uh, one prize there that is potentially good enough to solve here, just to join matchup. I, I recall seeing stuff on a reply to some Twitter as some tweets, but I didn't, I didn't look up the card. So maybe there isn't one.

Mike:

No, here we go. I have it up. Cause uh, Zach massagers played it today in his list. Uh, it does a hundred plus 60 if it has a special energy attached for three energies. So if you have psychic, psychic Aurora you're one-shot in a decision,

Brit:

but it's the same as the V but it's a baby.

Mike:

Yeah, pretty much just, I think the V does like two 20, if it has a special

Brit:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see. That seems pretty good to me then. But yeah, the, I think that those versions just seem much more consistent and I watched most of the limitless tournament over the weekend, but a little bit of the Pokestats one and the, the one, one out creamy seems also very good to me. At least like as an ice rider player, I can't beat that. I cannot be the, um, I think the one, one is good enough for you to lock up your matchup against me. I certainly don't beat the heavier out creamy versions, but that was, that was kind of one of the fringe match-ups that I noticed was very difficult when they can one-shot you and you can't one-shot them just truly impossible.

Brent:

yeah. that's, that's the classic. Like I started challenges. It's like, if you have to hit for two 50 twice and they have any strategy and, you know, metal being the best strategy to like one hit you, you're like, we are just going down and absolutely.

Brit:

Right. And it's just because you can't really pressure them. They just, they have the time they need to, one shot you with an all creamy and then finished the game probably with them, their shadow writers or something like that. Um, and I'm getting at the 1, 1, 2 at the same time, you might get lucky in Boston and because it's so low, um, just pull out the game afterwards and there's always, there's always path through the peak and prey path to the peak stamp and pray. Yeah. It's curious that the, I would think that, like, I don't know these it's the Moultrie stacks that worried me more than Eternatus would and, um, like the Aurora version outside of enabling the Necros, but I guess just doesn't like, I don't really know what you would want. There's nothing you really play other than the Xarelto. So I guess Eternatus maybe. Just not any good right now. I'm not sure where it is currently in the meta game, but if it's like LMZ and decidua and shatter rider, it turned, it just can't possibly be good.

Brent:

Uh, um, you know, So I, I had mixed results against a shadow rider, I think, uh, w when I was playing ice rider, I think the, the game that I've won the most easily, if they've benched the ganger Mimikyu, they're stupid. That is like, that is not the thing that win that game. Cause that's like the only one that you can one hit for three prizes because it's 240 points and you're

Mike:

win in three attacks then. Yeah,

Brent:

ah, we got there. Now I'm going to like, bang this alchemy twice and we'll win or whatever it is. But like, like that was the, the, that was the, every time they put down the Gingerman because I was like, oh, okay, we have a chance to give a chance, but I found, so I played a bunch of games of shadow writer and. Like I mentioned, like, so on the one hand you could say, I'll just never trust people to tell me that the shadow rider hemlock is bad. But like, I feel like when I look at the decks that are winning, like all different kinds, it's the shadow writers are winning. Like you can play a one-on-one alchemy and it's totally fine. You can play like the zap, those heavy. I want to have a counterpart alternatives and it's fine. You can play two Trevnoir. You can play one Trevnoir you can play Gingerman mEq you can not play again. Gar, you can play two mutants. You can play them. You too. It's like, I feel like it's totally random. Um, is that, do you guys think that that's because shadow writers there's like that good. Or do you think people are building like different decks with the same core and it's like all working out for them or like.

Mike:

uh, I don't know. I mean, it could be that the D I mean, it's probably a combination that the deck is like really good, and the players that are playing at the best on any given day, uh, because. It, there is a Zoroark element to the deck, right? No matter what version you're playing, you are seeing a lot of cards and being able to see a lot of cards does lend itself to two more skillful plays. So, uh, you, you, you gotta think it's probably a little bit of both. Yeah.

Brent:

Yeah, I know I've said on the pod before. I like I'm the absolute worst at knowing when I'm supposed to hoarder house somebody. So like, I think that that does not play into my strengths at all, but I, so here's why like big, big scheme of things. My reaction to shadow writer Calyrex was, um, a great example of a super high skill cap deck. difference between uh Calyrex and, um, like Zoroark is you only get you, you generate hand advantage when you accelerate energy. And like the good news is you can accelerate entry like bonkers. Um, but the bad news is like, once you accelerate it all your energy, you know, if they stamp you, you're just done for it.

Mike:

right? Yes. There's some balance of keeping an energy around the thing though. I think some games, it doesn't matter because in a lot of games doesn't matter. Cause games just over so quickly, then you're always going to have energy left to accelerate, but to give yourself the best odds. Yeah,

Brent:

Right, right. Yeah, Like, I, I definitely thought that there's some level of, like, you have to recognize, uh, you know, do I need this acceleration right now? Or should I chill with these psychic energies in my hand? No, even though, like I could be accelerating energies and you could be setting up alchemy plays and you could be setting up max Geist or whatever. Um, it, it seemed like, uh, like sort of like compared to ice rider so much less linear, like you have a lot of different attacks and a lot of different ways to get there. Especially if you start like saying, Hey, I'm gonna run out for me to all, all that.

Mike:

Yeah, for sure. I will say the other thing that struck me, I know you mentioned that in the ice rider match, if you don't want to play the game guard gimmicky down, but I'm watching some people play the deck gang. Our Mimikyu is so insane in the deck like that in a lot of match-ups because you just, by yourself, like the hardest thing about a stage one deck is getting out your stage. One's quick enough, but gang guard mimic you gives you a full turn where your opponent can't do anything, which is, it essentially makes your stage one deck into a basic deck and in a lot of ways, which is really crazy. So yeah, you have, and I guess that's another thing to think about, you have this super, super, super powerful tool, but there's some games where you really don't want to play it. So that's like another thing you got to really be thoughtful of.

Brent:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I noted that, uh, that people have lots of different types of Pokemon in there. I also seen people winning tournaments, playing chaotic, swell as their stadium, and some people paying, playing past the peak of their stadium. Um, I know Zander on channel fireball, the greatest sponsor, uh, uh, had posted a list where he was playing like three marsh, shadows and forecasts for the peaks,

Mike:

Hmm.

Brent:

absolute head of paranoia. And yet, conversely, like I love when I was playing shadow rider, I lost a nice rider deck cause they like turn one path of the peak for me. And I got my marsh ADOT I prized one more shadow and had another more shadow and deck and I marsh shadowed it and then he passed the PBX star. I was like, oh, Okay. it's going to be like that.

Mike:

Yeah,

Brent:

So, so I sold myself on as Xander's that three mark shadow list. Right.

Mike:

Yeah, I think my guess is that as we come closer, maybe there won't be an optimized list for a deck like this. Maybe it will be much, much like Zoroark where there are multiple different variants that are all super strong. But my guess is that if there is one that it gets optimized too, it's like a non path to the peak list. Um, it just seems like you really want to keep your, like, I really liked the swell lists. I, I think that makes the most sense to me.

Brent:

certainly. I feel like, like most of the games that I'm playing except against the turn of this and, you know, turn, this is extremely difficult. Um,

Brit:

yeah.

Brent:

uh, ability is the best ability in the game. You will, you should keep doing

Mike:

Right, exactly. Yeah. Like imagine absorb played powerplant.

Brent:

Yeah.

Mike:

you. I mean, there is, there is like Zuora garb, right? I mean, I guess that was the thing, but like, eh, I don't know, Zuora garb was never like the it's been a sustainable Zoroark deck, but it was never like

Brit:

The best one. It never, never anywhere close to being the top. The top option.

Mike:

right, exactly. Yeah,

Brent:

Well, and part of it was part, I think part of the point of Zuora garb was like, you would generate a whole bunch of cards like you, would, you, you know, you guys trade back and forth for a little while, and then you in the new one or to generate monster card advantage by trading and

Brit:

Yeah.

Mike:

yeah. Right. Yeah. The strategy's a little different

Brent:

right. Like it was, it was not an attempt to win the game fairly quickly, which is, you know, the modern game of Pokemon

Mike:

Right, right, right. Exactly. So, yeah, I'm interested even if I'm not playing it, I'm interested in seeing kind of how the lists of, uh, get optimized going forward because the deck is. Very clearly super powerful, but I think we haven't, we haven't cracked the code a hundred percent.

Brent:

yeah. Yeah, Uh, I, I, no surprise. I've been playing the, uh, the, the, the treble lock, uh, version. And like, every time I might watch somebody, it's super amazing. But yeah, the deck just, uh, I think I don't play the deck well enough. I think I, like, I feel like I've, I've got some problems with the engine. I spent some time working on, like, just seems like it's okay. Not great. And adding, like, I'm running a build with it like the alchemy right now. And, uh, to me it feels like it clumps up the deck a little bit. Although I hear you Brit, like there's probably some games that are just unwinnable without it. You need some ability to one hit stuff, right. Sometimes one 50 in hand advantages.

Brit:

Well, it takes kind of, especially if you're getting knocked out, let's lose up in three energies or more at a time. It can really, that's one of the things I noticed. And again, I haven't put too much time into it recently, but I thought I'd be hitting these critical masses of the damage faster than I seem to. Um, just for whatever reason. I don't know. Maybe, I mean, I guess in my head, I'm just like, Boltund is a great Boltund does basically 300 damage sometimes. Why, why aren't I doing that? But of course you're forgetting sort of like the other stuff, there was more than just Boltund then Tapu, Koko, like Boltund does all that image after, after two full buses or something like it's a lot of energy, um, that's six abilities or something to between two attacks. Um, but yeah, I do think that the one shot option that's something like out creamy, something, uh, much easier to pull off is. Hmm worth trying. I can definitely see, um, where we're headed in the meta-game, where it was going to be particularly useful. Um, so I'd be curious to know if it's helpful or not in the mirror, if it ends up being even remotely good in the mirror. I would think of it as a, you know, a warranted inclusion in the list. But if it's only for like ice rider, if that's really the only match, it changes. I can't imagine it's worth, worth your time still, but I'll have to talk around. I know some people who have, um, because it did well in the limitless tournament, been putting a little time into it, so I'll have to pick their brain on a couple of these points. See what they think

Brent:

Uh, you know, the, I think the other thing that has surprised me about a shadow writer is I keep imagining that there'll be these situations, I think against Urshifu. And I rider decks where I use the basic shadow writer of the, because it has this, like, it has this double 50 snipe attack and I'm like, oh, I can kind of see how placing five damage counters on to Pokemon against like these chinchy Noe decks might be a thing that never worked out. You were thinking, Hey, I want to do that. That's that's the one thing as it turns out, because the problem is if you don't evolve, they'll they'll, they won't shut you with those writers. So you're like, well, that was terrible.

Mike:

Right.

Brent:

Like, you could never put yourself in a situation where you're like, I'm going to just slaughter all these gen chinos. It's going to be fantastic. Um, and so like, ironically for me, once you do that, like once you go down the path of saying, Hey, I'm just going to let them keep all their chinos, the whole, like, Nightwatch like hand blocky thing. You're like, well, Okay. So that's not gonna really going to happen in this game. That's fine. So, so then you're like, you're just going to trade hits with this thing that hits you for two 50 constantly. Um, uh, yeah, that that's tricky. The, hence you need the algorithm because if you had, if you king find a way to get one to one headed there, like you're not gonna have a great plan

Mike:

yeah, it makes

Brent:

and Yeah. Interesting and challenging. All right guys, I think the last two decks that we should talk about are, uh, this new ADP mattress bill and the, the MuTu dark box that I feel like in the last 24 hours is suddenly everywhere. Um, Like big scheme of things. I think this just highlights how multiparous is probably a bonkers card. And Mike probably should've said multiparous important card or was that too obvious?

Mike:

that would have been a good hot take. Um, these actually are the two decks that I had played this past week. Um, I've mostly. Yeah, so I, you know, I, I messed around mostly with Inteleon decks during the first week. And then, uh, I haven't played a ton of ton, but I've probably put about 15 games into each of these decks. Um, so I feel like I have a pretty decent understanding. So the ADP mattress deck is good. It's kind of fun to play and there are. There's cool things that you can do it. See, it feels just as consistent as ADP Z like regular EDPC, which is not a knock nor a compliment. It's a, you know, there's games where you just kind of draw a bunch of junk or you draw your saucers, your energy switches, you know, you have, uh, you have, uh, a multiparous with no darks, but you have metal saucers or you have metal Pokemon with dark energies in your hand. But no matrass, and I don't know. So there, there's lots of weird games because you're kind of have a lot of moving pieces, but

Brent:

Okay.

Mike:

you know, 75% of your games, it feels really sweet because you're just kind of doing powerful things and you have a lot of options and whatnot. Um, I would be, I mean, I think it'll be like a good deck in the meta game, but I don't think it'll ever be like, Super super dominant just because of its inherent, uh, kind of consistency issues. But I think it probably is the best way to play ADP right now just because I don't think regular ADP can beat shadow rider consistently. And matrass is obviously quite good at that. So any questions or thoughts before I talk about the dark box decks, I've played more of that.

Brit:

No, that's kind of my impression. I know. I guess I'll ask you one question on it. A lot, most of the lists I see for this day club deck, just like sometimes the only play, um, like one station and that seems wrong around to me. And it sounds like you you're still playing patches cause I've even even think some of those counts can tend to waiver too. So like, what is, what is your Pokemon count? Exactly. And what do you think is right? Do you think it's like 2, 2, 2, 1, um, like Tuesdays chin to trace one wild while and then you're drawn poke them on. Like, that would probably be where I start.

Mike:

That's it. That's exactly what I have. Yeah. I have to Zacian to ADP, to matrass the model while and yeah. Then draw Pokemon, I think that's it. Um, yeah. Cause. There are definitely some match-ups where you want to. Zacian like LMZ for example, I think your LMZ matchup is not super great. And if you only play one Zacian, it's really bad. Um, and like against ice rider, you probably want to go double Zacian. Uh, you don't even really care about GX scene. So I will say that's kind of the other interesting thing is that like, against some of these VMX decks, you don't even care about ADP's GX attack. Uh, cause you know, again, shadow rider. You just want to take six prizes against ice Friday when Saatchi and Sasha and takes expresses. Um, you can also sometimes GX just for one energy. And then that helps some math. So for example, like my while then becomes a better attacker in the ice rider matchup, because they don't need a full bench for the one shot. You're the only four bench. So things like that where you just a GX in for one is, is good. Um, but yeah, I've also kind of thought about going the other way. Brit is like, maybe if you only play one Sasha and you could probably play like two or three metal saucers because you just, you, you like, you need more metal saucer targets just to ha actually get out. Um, so I could see running like one Zacian and one ages slash you probably always need three metal Pokemon though. I think we're only running two metal Pokemon. You're just not gonna have your saucer targets enough at times when saucers in your hand.

Brent:

And you still want to try to find the Zacian if you're going first,

Mike:

Right? Right. Yeah. Intrepid swords. Amazing.

Brent:

right.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

Yeah. That I that's. So I haven't played any games, the, uh, with the dark box tech, but I did play a bunch of games with because as you said, one straight, a couple of packs for those cards, like throwing into ADP list of super easy. It was, it was cheap and fun. Um, uh, various similar reaction. I think when I was playing games with it, I bumped into him. Back to back Victini the Max's on the ladder. And it made me sad that I wasn't playing ice rider. And it made me wish that there was some like water Pokemon that people could put in their toolboxes.

Mike:

Yeah. And we were kind of talking about that the other day in one of our chats of like putting together some type of weakness box deck, and, you know, maybe you play one ADP, maybe you wouldn't even do that. Um, but I think like any list like that, it's just going to have these clunkiness issues sometimes.

Brent:

Right, right.

Mike:

So it might just be better.

Brent:

that definitely felt like, and I'm sure you're about to tell me, because I think the MuTu dark box stuff kind of puts us already there, like multiparous and expanded with battle compressor is going to be bonkers.

Mike:

Yeah, it will be. But I, I had a game yesterday when I was playing the dark box deck where I tried to get to multiparous out and can't do that. I mean, you can get too much savvy. You can't use the ability twice. I was pretty, uh, disappointed when, I mean, like I knew that, but you know, you don't really know it until you make the mistake in a game,

Brent:

Right, right. That's funny. So, so talk to me about you two dark box. This is definitely the like new spice.

Mike:

The deck is really cool. Um, so I mean, is there anything that we got besides matrass that, so this deck, I mean, has been a deck before. It's just never been very good before. And I think the two things. Have made it good arm, altruist, obvious, like you said, very good card, lets you, um, just recover much easier. Um, but also I think the big thing is shadow rider being, you know, super

Brent:

Yeah. I was going to say also dark as in a great place in the map.

Mike:

Yeah. And you get to

Brent:

your ability to combo dark with Mewtwo and have a psychic answer to stuff is, you know, you're like dark and psychic. It's amazing.

Mike:

Yeah, right. Your typing is super, super good right now. Um, so I mean, both those match-ups are great. The Eternatus, match-ups a little tough because you don't play big charms so they can, one-shot your tag teams. I think I've only played against it twice, I think. And I lost both times, but I think the strategy that you're supposed to do is use the big Umbrian dark ride, GX attack to kill an Eternatus and then like maybe boss a Crobat and Boston single prize, or I think that's probably your strategy. So you really have to go first, I think, because you have to like, go first, get a knockout, like going like on your second turn on, uh, either on like a, like a Zigzagoon or an eval to all that they leave in the active. Um, but yeah, that matchup seems hard, but other than, yeah, Everything else has felt like a pretty solid matchup. You kind of destroy. I feel like you destroy LMZ, which is otherwise very good in this metagame. Um, you're okay. Ice rider is pretty tough because they can one-shot your stuff as well. Um, but yeah, again, tertiary foo and, and, um, and chatter rider. You're you're really strong and it's just a fun deck.

Brent:

I also played a bunch of games with Eternatus, uh, this week and, and, uh, Brett, last week you were not wrong. Like people would find playing Eternatus fun. Like he puppies or something like it made ice riders seem like a thrill ride.

Brit:

Hmm.

Brent:

Uh, like, uh, at least with ice rider, there's like, It's linear in that, like, I'm definitely going to attack with this ice rider, a BMX this term, but like, I was drawing some cards. I was doing some things like Eternatus. I was like, here's a Crobat here's some Pokemon put them all down. Um, and in fact that this thing, like, uh, I'm pretty sure I could train, uh, you know, my dog to play Eternatus there's literally like no decision-making to, uh, to be done. Um, uh, Yeah, we should drive that, uh, that, that kind of the format. Nobody wants it. So, uh, uh, so tournaments this week, if you were playing tournaments this week, what techs would you play guys?

Mike:

I would play, um, the probably, um, it seems like it's a pretty, it's like kind of outside the sphere of weaknesses, you know, weakness, triangles that's going on. Uh, it doesn't actually seem like it's beating the shadow caliber. than like 50 50 in tournament's, which is a little surprising to me, but it still, it seems good answers for your seems good against Eternatus obviously gradients ice writer. Um, you definitely take a hard out to the dark MuTu deck though. Um, it's, that's a really hard match-up

Brent:

See, I thought, I thought you were going to give us the hot and spicy thing and say you were loving the dark meat too.

Mike:

might play that. I would, I would play dark me too, if I was, um, you know, just kind of going in if, if, if it was kind of like a semi-serious tournament, I'd probably play dark meat too. If I was playing a really serious tournament, I'd probably go with LMZ

Brent:

So, so Yeah. you think dark MuTu might be good enough, but it sounds, it sounds like it's more about your comfort level with the deck then about your feelings about it.

Mike:

yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's that's true too. I'm still learning the ins and outs of the dark deck because. There are lots of options. You know, you have lots of different attacks that you can use. Um, lots of different supporters you can use. When do you, uh, yeah. Um, so I, I need to play it more to get more comfortable. LMZ I've played a lot and I like that LMZ lists are now going back to, like, they're getting rid of the tag call stuff because you don't need coding energies anymore. Cause fires just totally out of the format. Um, so you can just play straight metals. You can play polka years. I like that version of the deck much more. So I I'm more down to play that.

Brent:

How about you, Brett? Are you ready to give in to shadow?

Brit:

Um, now not yet, I wouldn't be playing Inteleon ice rider. I feel like I've played enough of CIN Chino to sort of, I like it a lot. Yeah. Um, but to have my mind settled out and I just want to get a little more data before I closed the book on ice rider. And I think Inteleon, um, my like in paper, I think it's just, it, it should be better than Chino. I don't, I don't think it will be. I think just the consistency will be a little bit different. Um, I guess I do, I was just thinking about this. We haven't really talked and I don't, obviously I don't want to dive into it here, but there's the Mallomar of Emacs down. And is it, is it the consensus? Is it definitively the case that like dark MuTu is just the better of the Wi-Fi all decks or is, is that just a, is that another viable acronym open format that we'll just have to say for another time?

Brent:

I haven't seen it have like huge success yet. Like I've played against it on a ladder. I know people are out there like playing it. I know it's a thing. And, uh, yeah, I think he popped me, but, uh, I didn't get the impression that it was some like super, a tricky deck.

Brit:

I mean, I'm a skeptic. I haven't played it. I just, it doesn't seem like it does enough damage to me and being weak bearish, if you, I don't like that's, that's where my, I sort of can't imagine it being like to me, they both played me a two to two, but the one without a VMX seems like it would have to be better that I know. I mean, Sandra did well with it in the PO the invitational. Um, I know we went five and two. I seem to remember that maybe a loss was his fault. Like he could have pulled it out or something like that, or he just got a bad match up. I can't remember. Um, but yeah, I don't see it as much as I did a week or so ago, so it's probably not any good. Um, but I just wanted to, that's just a question I had about between the two ducks. I don't know which one is better and probably won't really try either of them.

Mike:

Yeah.

Brent:

Amazing pod as always.

Mike:

yeah, so it's a good deep dive into some decks. I learned some stuff.

Brent:

Yeah. Uh, um, uh, I w what can I say? Uh, I felt like I had to get value out of all the money that I spent.

Mike:

There you go.