The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
The Trashalanche Pokemon Podcast
Worlds now, worlds later, conquest testing results, and more!
Welcome to the Trashlands podcast. Attendance is, unfortunately for some, 100%. It is me, William Halliburton, Chinoy. We're sponsored by Dragon Shield. Dragon Shield's great. We're using their sleeves in the future. Cam knows. We're the only Pokemon TCG podcast. My dad said I should say that, say that this time. I think that's, that's it for the intro.
Abaan:I guess we should address the, the comments, you know? Like, we are still gonna be three kids who yap and use all the, you know, the Zoomer terms, but we're gonna try to use some more, like, full sentences, some some stuff to cater to
Liam:yeah, dude, I, the feedback I've gotten on the pod is, like, directly related to Age, I think like if you're over like 24 you're probably dissatisfied with the direction the pod has taken. And if you're under 24 the pods become, I think, more enjoyable. But, you know, we'll see at, at least based on my my feedback.
Abaan:No, I've picked up on that too.
Cameron:Unbelievable, the BFL is always going to come out, but it
Abaan:So do you want to get started with the rumors about next year's Worlds format? I think that's as good a place to start as any.
Cameron:bit. That
Liam:Yeah, for sure.
Abaan:If anyone doesn't know, I think pretty much the whole community is basing it off, like, King Dre's tweets, you know? And so, like, all I understood from his from his rumors like from like parsing those twitter threads was just there's going to be like some kind of top x format for the each each region so like i don't like the numbers aren't even like disclosed but let's say it's like top 128 from like every major region like NA, EU, LATAM, etc. and then there's going to be like different BFLs and like i don't know i didn't really Much more than that. That seemed to be like the gist of what people were getting upset
Liam:Yeah. Wait, so do you know if it's going to top X or no?
Abaan:I mean, I don't know anything. I'm just saying like, that's what
Liam:Yeah, obviously not confirmed, but is that what the rumors are? It's
Abaan:rumors are. That's the word on the street. Yeah, topics. But in points, not like the old school ELO. It'll be points.
Liam:What are your opinions on this, Yvonne?
Abaan:I think, okay, I think that the one part about it that is very scuffed, is if the BFLs are not managed properly, I think it'll be like, it's insane that people can just like, fly to everything and get it, and I also, as much as I think that the world should probably be a little smaller than a thousand people, not a little smaller, I think it should be way smaller than a thousand people I don't like any system where it's like, You can do everything right, and at the very end, you're still like, kind of battling with someone, and it's like, very, like, it's very gimmicky, especially back in the day when it was ELO, it was terrible, people would go like, 4 0 at Nationals, and just have to like, drop out, so I guess with points, that's like, that, at least that concern is alleviated, but it's like, any kind of top back system, Like, someone's gonna be top X plus one, right? And like, that person, that just feels terrible, right? Like, at least with a threshold, there's like a goal in sight, you can like, season plan, and like, especially with ICs, right? Like, let's say you think that the threshold's gonna be X amount, right? And then at UIC, North America just has an insane showing, and so like, All the points are just inflated, right? It just, it can kind of just ruin your whole, like, season planning, like, out of nowhere, so I don't like, I like the idea that, like, people who, like, are trying to manage their finances can plan out their season and, like, reasonably attain a World's Invite, but the other issue, though, is that, like, maybe it's not that, it's supposed to be that easy to get a World's Invite, right? It's maybe, like, maybe you should just play the, play the game, like, on your own, like, however you want, and then just, like, see if you get a World's Invite at the end. Maybe you don't need to, like, obsess about getting your World's Invite.
Liam:I think that's the biggest issue for me, is now you're competing with people who have, like, access to a ton of tournaments. Like, they're directly competing for the same spot as you, as opposed to having, like, an unlimited number of spots. Like, yeah, exactly, you're in the situation where you're like, say you're X, and X plus one decides to book an emergency trip to the Antarctica SPE, and you get cooked out of invite because of that? That's like, that's like, gotta be like the worst feeling in the world. Like, you know, at the, at the end of the season or whatever, you just get cooked by, by some guy going to like, An unbelievable number of SPEs across the world, that is probably not great for, like, a Worlds invite structure. The BFLs are, like, an attempt to fix that, but it doesn't completely alleviate that. They get better and more opportunities to secure championship points and then directly competing for the same spot. I don't think that's super healthy.
Abaan:I think my issue or like my thought to how to fix that problem is like, first of all, I think SPEs, like in general, I understand that they have to be, they have to exist in Europe for like legal reasons, like based on the fact they can't get prizing and etc, etc. Sure. And like, it's kind of sucks like European, like European SPE will probably be the same caliber as like some of our smaller regionals, right? So it is kind of suck if we said like, okay, we're going to make SPEs not worth anything. But at the same time, like some random place like exactly the Antarctic SPE, like the Cape Town okay, I shouldn't, like, actually name real places, but, like like, anyway, some of these SPEs are, like, pretty free and, like, it's, like, an open secret, like, that it's super free and, like, some players that would never ever get a finish at a like, a normal tournament would, like, pop off at their S at the random SPE, right? And, like and, like, it's so weird that as the SPEs at the end of the tournament Might actually become like, so ridiculous that people will just be like flying in from nowhere And it's like, you don't want to force people at the end of the season to have to be in this crazy panicked rush to like get these last couple points. So I think the BFL has to be like Extremely tight so that you can actually like reasonably get max out your like reasonable finishes like you can be like okay I have four top 32s or better at regionals like that's totally like that's it I'm locked like I don't have to like I don't have to sweat it at all about this end of the end of the year stuff
Liam:Yeah, I agree. I will say the one thing though the saving grace for me is the auto invite system. Hopefully it gets extended a little bit from first place at regionals and finals at ics. But like that is like, that is the most wonderful thing in the world to me. You can go to one regional and then you win it and you have your invite. You don't have to go to more events. It's like so amazing and it's locked up for sure.
Abaan:imagine the top X system is actually extremely tight. It's like, 64 people but it passes down and there's auto invites, and then they actually, or maybe it's not even 64, maybe like, let's take it even like 32, but then they make like regionals, like top 4 is like, you're it. The world's like, what if it was like that? And it's just, 32 is just like, ladder in case you like, somehow got like,
Liam:Yeah, I, I think something like that would be, would be like pretty cool. Like give a very, very small margin for like consistency quals, right? Like if you just, if you never break through and you're like always on the verge of getting like an auto invite at like every event throughout the year, sure, you get a consistency invite, but then like the primary method for invites is top X at a regional or top X at an
Abaan:What's the highest placement you can get a regional without being skilled, do you think? I, I don't know, like, I, I'm very curious. Curious.
Liam:consistency is what defines defines results. Like anybody can make
Abaan:So like, do you think worlds would become, on average, more skilled if you did this system? Like, let's say you made it top 4, like, I think there's a lot of, like, frauds who've top 4'ed regionals. Like, I think worlds would just be just as diluted as it is now.
Liam:No, I, I wouldn't say that. I think I, I'd say first of all, having a top cut experience changes you forever, like that, that is like a really important experience as a player. And like I, I think a lot of people
Cameron:It's pretty
Liam:they lose in their first top cuts like.
Cameron:I think everybody,
Abaan:It happens.
Liam:it's like a, it's a different experience because it's, it's usually in a time, a time structure that you've never played before.
Cameron:Exceptions, right?
Liam:and then like, you know, they get to their first sudden death, and I, I think everybody when they play their first sudden death, they just get cooked. Like, they actually just like walk into it. Like, you know, some people of course, there are exceptions, right? But that's like a, a very common story. So I, I think like,
Cameron:it's just a
Liam:I, I think it's just a different feeling, like when you sit across from somebody at Worlds and you're like, This guy top cut a regional, as opposed to like, I think this guy went to like all three ICs or something, because I've never heard of him before. Like,
Cameron:never heard that before. But, I,
Liam:I think that would be like
Cameron:I think that's
Liam:I think that's something positive for Worlds, when you're, you know, the people you stare across from are like, you know, names that have done very well, and you've seen like on the results page,
Abaan:I think generally, Pokemon players have a kind of loser mindset, like, if someone told me their world's special and they were like, yo, and then they looked at my season, which honestly I thought my season was pretty mid, even after the LA top 8, I think it was pretty mid, like, if someone told me that wasn't good enough, doesn't cut it, you don't make worlds, like, That's totally acceptable, like, I just have to get better, right? And like, I wouldn't, I, in general, just don't believe in qualifying, or like, complaining about any kind of qualifying structure, because if they told me that, like, the top four players in the world, that's it, that's what Worlds is, I'll be like, okay, well, I either am the top four player in the world, or like, I didn't make it, like, it's not like, I think it's kind of ridiculous to, like, like, Worlds, you It's like, can be as big or as small as it wants, like, you should just play, like, play to win the tournament you're playing in, and then, like, at the end of the season, they'll just tell you if you made it or not, like, I don't think you have to, like, I don't think you have to make worlds, and, like, no one's entitled to making worlds because they went to, like, X amount of tournaments, like, if, if they make it smaller, and then you don't make it, I personally think that's, That's fine, like, I, I think that you should just, like, work and prove yourself, try to win these tournaments, like, winning a regional in itself is, like, pretty sick, like, why does regionals have to, like, why does, like, why does it have to be a pipeline into worlds, like, if,
Liam:Yes.
Abaan:you know, like, just try to win the tournament you're playing, like, it's not about being a CP event, you know?
Liam:Yeah, the Worlds mentality is like, that is probably the most cooked mentality in the world. The John Aang had a tweet about this, he was like, y'all are so world's built, it's crazy. He's not lying. I think, what is it, I, but I, I think the question of how you want worlds to be structured, of, like, whether or not you want it to be like a Pokemon convention, where like, people go to have like, you know, a really fun Pokemon centric experience as opposed to, like, you know, a hyper competitive event for the best of the best.
Cameron:respect for the
Liam:is, like, the question you have to ask when you're deciding the world structure. So it's really weird to me to see people not propose
Cameron:other way, and,
Liam:the alternative, which is making worlds more accessible. Like, I think I'd have a lot more respect for the people who said I don't want it to be, like, a hyper competitive event that has less people going, if they said, if they then went the other way and, like, actually argued basically upon the principle that they want worlds to be more accessible and said, like, we need to make worlds a lot easier to access for where, like, you can go by just attending locals, or by just signing up and actually making it, like, you know, an open Pokemon convention. I think,
Abaan:To me though, my biggest issue though, we have so many Pokemon, like, I feel like every, like, I. C. E. regional is such a spectacle, right, like, there just needs to be one invite only tournament, right, like, and like, I actually think, like, one potential idea I had the other day was, like, there could just be more invite only stuff, like, Let's say you, like, I don't know, like, kind of like the magic system, where it's like, oh, okay, maybe, like, states or something feed into, like, regionals, and regionals, like, they feed into, like, some bigger
Liam:tear it up.
Abaan:yeah, actually, like, tier it up, like, why does every single tournament except Worlds have to be open, and then it just feels, like, It's like a huge jump, like, either worlds is like, too easy, and you're like, well, I just got it on accident, right, like, whatever, or it's like, way, way, way too hard, and then people are like, frustrated that they were not able to like, get it even after traveling an extensive amount, right, like, I don't know, I think that like, if there was just a tournament below worlds that was like, invite only, but it was like, the invite is like, the way people want the worlds invite to be now, then like, that would be lit, like, people would just be like, feel like, feel something, like, oh, I did well at regionals, now I get to play in like, regionals plus.
Liam:Yeah. I agree. I think, I think there should be more. Invite only tournaments, because those are, those are fun to compete in, those are fun to watch, and, and they make the events, like, more unique. I think ICs are like, they feel more similar to regionals than they do to worlds. But I, I think it should be the other way around.
Abaan:The only thing about ICs, the only way they're even maintaining the gimmick is because they don't really, they make sure the IC is like on a new format, like that's the way they like, are trying to make ICs feel special, but I think that's like, kind of sucks too, like you, you don't, I don't like that ICs are always a new format, that's like my own personal thing, I just,
Liam:I, I love new formats. Play playing in new formats is, is wonderful. I, I love the experience. I I love playing in custom formats, so I don't, I don't share the same sentiment. I think it's a, I think it's a great thing that they're on new formats. But yeah, I, I do agree that there should be
Abaan:do you
Liam:like a little bit more differentiation.
Abaan:do you think there should be an expectation that you have to go to multiple ICs if you expect to qualify for Worlds? Do you think that's like an acceptable, reasonable, I think, I think so too, I think you should just be able to do it from your own region's IC and that's, that's good enough, right?
Liam:I, I, I think there should be like a clear pipeline. of, like, local player to worlds. Like, there should be, like, a stronger pipeline. Like, somewhat like you said earlier with, like, tiering and stuff like that, but, like, you win a state, then you win a regionals, then you win, like, a national event or international event, and then you make worlds. Like, I think, I think there should be, like, somewhat of a system in place to where you can make jumps like that that are more reasonable, as opposed to, like, You jump from basically either nothing or going for worlds, because that's like the only the only thing you have. If you're talking about worlds, like, you have to jump to either, like, basically attending a ton of events, or just being cooked. Like, it's like a big jump you have to make being like a competitive player or not somewhat as opposed to being like, you know, a locally competitive player. Larger and larger jumps.
Abaan:Cameron do you want to say anything before we move on? To, like, maybe this year's format or something.
Cameron:I'm just, I'm the old man, dude, like, I'm just gonna do whatever they give. I don't think if 256, looking at the numbers, like, top 256 is not a terrible number. I only Yeah,
Abaan:Actually,
Liam:Yeah.
Cameron:I mean, that's, it is what it is, I mean, giving that a top 256, giving it a top 128, I don't think either of those are fine you wouldn't even be missing out on a lot of people who got their invite this year, maybe like, 10 so it keeps it about the same.
Liam:Also, also, I want to clarify, I think the reason that, like, one would say that a number is too big, because it is, it is somewhat subjective, right? Like, too big versus too small. There's not, like, like, why do you feel that way? I think the reason that I, I feel like the current number that we have now is, like, too big, is because there's a lot of players who are not particularly good who make worlds and I, I think worlds should be high quality play you know, like, the highest quality of play in Pokemon, and I think that would be better served by cutting out some of the players who are currently attending, I guess.
Abaan:like, that sounds like, I think that that seems like, oh, like, that's your, like, elitist take or whatever, but I think the one factor that people aren't talking about is that if Worlds is diluted, there will be some people who are going through the complete gauntlet to win Worlds. Like, it's like a complete banger every single round. It's like round one I played Tord, and then I played Azul, and then I played, like, Grant, and now I'm, like, two and one. Where some guy's gonna play, like, three straight people who, like Kind of squeaked in, doesn't really like, isn't very good, and that guy's like gonna be 3 0, and like, it's like, if you can at least eliminate like some of like the, like the bottom feeders, I guess, or whatever, then like, theoretically the world's like, every round should be like very difficult. At least like, no one should be getting like some like walk in paths like, into like 8 0, right? Like, or like, you just like end up beating like five like kind of mid players, had a good matchup against a couple top players, and then you're like 7 1, like that's crazy, no? Like, I think it's just unfair that some people will have to go through the gauntlet, essentially, and like, some people will just be, like, playing, like, those randoms.
Liam:Yeah, I mean, but I, I think that argument exists at like every level, like there's, you know, some guy has to play like the top four players in the world, like even if you made it like this top 32 system, some guy has to play the four best players in the world back to back to back, and some other guy has to play like 29, 30, 31, 32. Like there is some, like, difficulty disparity, but I get what you're saying, and I think, I mean, it ultimately does come down to, like, you know, there's some, like, not super great players at Worlds, and, like,
Abaan:Sure, but I think the difference between the 29th best player in the world and the 4th best player in the world, sure, obviously there's like a h actually a huge difference, but the thing is that, like, the 29th player in the best player in the world is not, like, a free win, by any
Liam:yeah, and I know that, like, that's good Pokemon being played, right? Like, that's a really strong player.
Cameron:I don't know,
Abaan:What do you think about this year's Worlds format, by the way? Oh, sorry.
Cameron:I mean, I just disagree, like, there's, I think it is an elitist take. Like, I don't know, when you think about it, there are strong players that just squeaked in. Cameron Kawasaki needed a top 64. Now, is he a top 30 player in the world? No. And like, could you, like,
Abaan:He didn't go to enough stuff, though.
Cameron:Yeah, he didn't go to a lot of stuff.
Abaan:Like, sure, so, like,
Cameron:but there's always players like that, and it's just like, so what, that means you have to, If there is no BFL or whatever it is, like, it should be even less, and then it just becomes really, like, even more of a spam on, like, how many events you go to, can you just spam and, like, get a high placement because you went to everything. Instead of giving a realistic expectation to someone who is in university and is a good player and just guess what, like, they don't have a job right now, so they can't travel to everything, like, is that, do you want to just weed out fields of talent just because of a situation that they're in? Like, I don't think there's a reason to when, if you're still having a solid player, yeah, maybe not everyone's like this super stellar, like, you know, Amazing stream player that everyone knows, but like typically they're pretty solid. If they got to worlds right as a baseline now,
Abaan:I just think, okay,
Liam:Bro,
Cameron:yes.
Liam:know if that's true anymore,
Abaan:in order to let that person in, you have to let in, like, hundreds of other people. So it's like, sometimes it's like, it's one of those things where you have to just, like,
Cameron:and it's also like, it's, and it realistically, like, that's not Pokemon's goal. It's to grow the scene, not to limit it. It's to they barely. Yes. The kids are finally having day twos. Do you think they're gonna try to limit
Liam:Yeah, but dude, I don't know why, I don't know why people act like the way you grow the scene is by handing out invites to, like, as many people that want them. I don't know why
Cameron:it, it is it, it is.
Liam:the way you grow the scene.
Cameron:it absolutely is.
Abaan:it is a way to grow the scene, Shinoi, but it's like, we're saying, like, fundamentally, it's like,
Cameron:Yes, it's a pure numbers thing for Pokemon. If you're not looking at it from their point of view, you're looking at it from a competitor. I want to feel good about myself, the best about myself, because I want to only compete against the highest level of people. They want 200 kids. Oh, it's growing. Just hand out these invites. End up playing when they're adults and then they end up just staying when they're adults and you get people who are lifelong Pokemon players at any every different level who are buying Pokemon products who are making them billionaires like you're looking at it at a different point of view that is just unfortunately
Liam:Yeah, well,
Cameron:like Pokemon won't do like it
Liam:recognize that it grows the scene, but I don't know why people act like it's, like, the best way or the only way to grow the scene.
Cameron:yes but it's also it's it's it you're right but it's just not Pokemon like this is once again the old man take of like it just doesn't like it Like, what the company wants is very different, and that's unfortunately, like, just the reality of the situation. Like, this is Pokemon, year in and year out, we know this to be them from decades.
Abaan:I think, yeah, no one's, to be honest, like, no one's actually saying that Pokemon's gonna do anything we're suggesting. Like, it just, like, the main point I was just making is that, like, that belief that you have that's coupled with, like, world invites, the world needs to be as big as possible because, like, the team needs to grow and, like, people are not going to play the game if the world invites are too hard to get. That is, like, such a, like, that is, I think the only reason people think that is because of the status quo. It's hard to take something from people who, like, have got it now. Like, in the same way we were talking, like, Like, it's a really crazy analogy, but like, we're talking about like, when we add cards to decks that are like, that feel good, like, oh man, I really like a second boss, right? Oh, now I have second boss. And then, you never had second boss before, but then when you want to take out second boss, you're like, freaking out, you're like, bro, like, how can I play the game without second boss? Like, that's how I feel about all these World's Invite takes, it's like, yeah, everyone got the World's Invite, now we can't take it away.
Cameron:I think the important part to note also is the percentage of people who got invites. Like, like, when you consider the amount of percentage, and you can skew data anyway to make it look good, but I think there's only like less than 1 percent of people who got invites. Went for a Worlds invite, like, actually got one. I
Abaan:Went for World's Invite, meaning
Liam:Dude, when for a world somebody's way different. I think
Cameron:yeah, who just got CP. Yeah, sure, you can
Liam:bro, if you look at the, did you see the Nico Alavas tweet? Oh, yeah.
Cameron:there's a certain amount of people. You can skew data anyway, it's just like, there's more players than ever, so yeah, the amount of players at Worlds is gonna be more if the number is just a line threshold. Like, maybe that's why they go to top whatever it is, because, like, with the advent of just continuing to increase in size of events, like, they can't hold worlds without it growing to like 2, 000 people eventually, right?
Abaan:But they clearly see that there's a prestige problem, right?
Cameron:mean it's gonna be
Liam:every, every other competitive event doesn't skew their events, like, Make it larger, I think, like, based on the number of players
Cameron:no, so they might be they might be saying top 256 and that's it, and other regions like top 16, like whatever it is, like just setting bars, 128, like, that might be A better way to do it, honestly, it might not feel fair, cause you're, you're Racing against someone else, but it's a way to keep worlds a particular size, if that's their goal too.
Abaan:I think the point I, like, I think I don't like is that what Pokemon is or isn't doing has nothing to do with, like, what's correct, right? Like, Pokemon is making a decision, right? And they clearly already recognized that they had a problem. Because the old day one, day two system, where they gave out day one invites to anyone with a pulse, and then day two invites were, like, completely impossible to get unless you, like, flew across the whole world, and, like, made, like, like, went to, like, every single tournament, it was, like, that was clearly bad. And they recognized, like, oh, we should make worlds harder, and then just make it one day, right? And, like, I think people were, like, Every every time that Pokemon sets, like, some threshold and people make it, and then people are like, Oh, this is too easy, everyone's, like, always loves to fall back to the argument, like, Oh, that's what Pokemon said, right? But, like, if Pokemon came out tomorrow and said, like, okay, There's the world's gonna be eight people. We're just gonna pick the eight best players. Would you guys then be like, well, that's what world is, like, that's what Pokemon wants? Like, Pokemon, like, whatever they say, it doesn't it doesn't have any, like, It doesn't matter what Pokemon does, that doesn't affect our conversation on like, what the world should be
Liam:Yeah, bro. People's status quo classes are like actually so crazy. They're just
Cameron:Or it's just
Liam:whatever Pokemon says,
Cameron:Or it's just the idea that like Or it's just the idea that like you can talk about it as much as you want. It doesn't change anything. Like it okay, great, fantastic. You can talk about it for like 30 minutes on the content. Like it doesn't matter because it doesn't change anything. Like we know what Pokemon wants and that
Abaan:do we? I mean, I'm excited for these leaks though, I feel like these leaks are gonna go crazy, like when they actually announce it, and then like, it's gonna be so cutthroat, and then everyone's gonna, like, everyone has been saying like, well, we should just do it, cause that's what Pokemon's been saying, like, I'm so excited for like, when the status quo just completely changes, and everyone's gonna have to like, cope that the system's also goaded.
Cameron:And not just like Once again, I just don't care what the invite structure is, I think I'll get my invite. If it
Abaan:Nah, I
Liam:I don't know if Shinoa is like that, but I
Abaan:No, I respect
Liam:the view mentality.
Abaan:That's actually that's the only dude, the other thing, bro. Dude, did they not know? Like, Top 4ing
Cameron:was a top, if it was a top X amount, like, you can say I spammed events. I think I finished higher than you. It doesn't matter that you won a regional. Like, you better start going to stuff if it's top 128, Liam. You can't just win an event and chill out all of a sudden. Like, you gotta maybe
Abaan:You literally
Cameron:Okay, okay, but that's the one way you can do it. You better win next time, or you might have to go to locals. My bad, Liam.
Liam:maybe.
Cameron:Might have to next year
Liam:I'll be on the I'll be on the West Coast next year though,
Cameron:Top 64 and Leah might be sweating it out.
Abaan:Wait, Liam, you're moving to the West Coast?
Liam:yeah.
Abaan:Like, your, like, whole family? Or, like, oh wait, you're
Liam:no, for school, for school. I mean,
Cameron:Cali boy, Cali boy.
Liam:I'll be I'll be in Oakland.
Abaan:Trash Lunch Podcast Live, like, before, like, all these tournaments. Poor Sac. I guess, do you guys have any thoughts about this year's Worlds format, by the way? I, like, just, like, before we, like, move on from Worlds altogether. I already, I guess we, like, kind of already addressed it, but, like, I'm a,
Liam:I think, I think a lot of people are, people are saying, like I think the top cut is going to be, like, 921. Right?
Cameron:so, I, I inputted the other day, if you How many people do we expect to
Liam:Like a thousand.
Cameron:at like
Abaan:Just, just,
Cameron:Should
Abaan:think just leave it at a thousand, right? Oh, sure. I mean, I think a lot of people aren't gonna be able to afford to go to Hawaii, and, like, they're gonna have to just, like, not go.
Cameron:But I'm just on a high end. If we just like, as a high end, I think it would be It's 8 rounds day 2, right?
Abaan:They like, they released their own spreadsheet
Cameron:It's like eight rounds and then four rounds, right, and
Abaan:Yeah, if it's 1250, then it'll be that, yeah.
Cameron:Okay. I have it right here. I think 90, roughly 91 players are expected to have a record of 18 match points or better
Abaan:Okay, so 91, day 2, and then 4 more rounds to see top 8, but
Cameron:And then, and
Abaan:hard to project asymmetric though, because people can doctor that so hard. Like, so
Liam:Dude, the asymmetric, do you know if it works the same way as it did for 2022 worlds? Like, is it,
Abaan:it's implied that it will, like, it'll be like, they'll play a bracket, right? Not
Liam:that is like the worst thing ever, I
Cameron:I think it currently says that eight
Abaan:what do you want it to be? They all play bracket to get into 8th seed? Or whatever?
Liam:I, I, I think it's just brutal that like if nine through 16 have the same record, the guy who went like XO throughout the entire event is forced to play top, cut asymmetric, and then get cooked
Abaan:No, bro, there's no other way to do it. It'll take too long, otherwise. Like, there's no other proper way to do asymmetric. Like, yes, they could all fight it out for the 8th spot, but that would take all day. Because they couldn't do any mats simultaneously.
Liam:I, I think that, I think that's a real issue, but I don't, I don't think like, you know, the guy who went XO should be like, basically punished by getting pushed into asymmetric bro, like having no way to dodge the asymmetric. Seems
Abaan:don't think there's gonna be that many people in cut. That's my guess.
Cameron:IT
Liam:Yeah, I, I mean, obviously, but like, just getting, getting pushed into asymmetric is like the worst feeling ever, bro. I, like, it probably shouldn't be, right? Like, it's, it's somewhat of an, like, an emotional, no, no logic take, but I, that was me. I got, I got pushed into asymmetric and, like, you know, you take the
Abaan:Wait,
Liam:like, ID in or something, like, I, I was, like, 6C, bro. I was, I was the lowest resistance, x11, and then, so I had to play a bunch of x2s. And, I got, yeah, like, I mean, it just feels terrible when you come in, like, at, like, I guess what would have been, like, a locked record, and then you have to play one more to, like, determine if you get, like, 16th or top cut,
Abaan:I mean, one way of looking at it though, is that you can play, if you played your if you knew the matchup in your last round, you can kind of decide, like, do I want to take my chances with, like, some random X2, or do I want to take my chances and just beat this guy right now? And then also, you can audible into tying that guy if it's looking real bad, like, so,
Liam:I mean,
Abaan:you might just want to play your last round at that point.
Liam:I think it is, like, a logically fine, it's just, like, somewhat of a feels bad for everybody who gets in at, like, you know, XO, X1, XO2, like, like, one, two, three, four, five,
Abaan:And it's like, it depends, like, there's two ways to min max these kind of things. Do you want to minimize, like, the amount of people who feel bad, or do you want to minimize the worst feeling in the tournament? Because the guy who does, like, 9th or 9th with the same record as 8th probably feels the worst out of, like, any person in the world, like, when that happens, right? So, like, you can try to minimize that, or you can try to minimize the number of people who feel bad, like, I don't know. It's
Cameron:Yeah,
Abaan:depends on the like, what you're looking for.
Cameron:mean if you've seen tournaments where like 10th is decided by opponents opponents, like, that probably feels terrible, like, you just, you finish with the same record, like, don't you feel like you should have a chance? Because,
Abaan:I personally don't feel like that, because like, normally when I like, have the same record as 8th, I just feel like, well, that's fine. That's like, deserved. Like, I didn't I didn't, like, have a good enough record to be in Cut. Like, one guy got lucky, not, like, a bunch of guys got unlucky. If I was the one person who bubbled out, that would feel terrible. Like, four people with my record made it in, and I'm just sitting there at ninth? That would feel bad, sure.
Liam:is probably the worst feeling.
Abaan:Yeah, that's way worse than, like, one guy Like, as far as you're concerned, you never had a good enough record to make Cut.
Liam:I know, I think, yeah, exactly. If there's like, if most people miss, and like one guy squeaks in, that's not you, that's like, you know, your record was just a little subpar, but like if most people hit, You have like you know, you got to a record with like an 80 percent chance to win, or whatever.
Cameron:bro, you're acting like 9, so it says right now that the record to get in is 9 1 2. And there might be a 9th person. Like, subpar, at Worlds, like, you're crazy.
Abaan:No, but like, not
Cameron:Man, it's like, you went 9 1 2, you went 9 1 2, but like, it was, you know, you just, you bubbled out, my bad guy. You just kinda, you lost one round. You suck. Like, what the f
Abaan:enough, right, like, like, it's top 8 at
Liam:I, I, like, like, what do you
Cameron:and the funny thing is, no, and the thing is, it says that, Like, 7th, 8th, and 9th will have that record. Like, that's fine! Like, 9 1 2, you had a good record, like, the 9th person doesn't deserve to be cut out of that.
Abaan:I'm seeing that with the knowledge in advance that it's asymmetric, things will be very weird, I, I, I don't believe that it'll be 9 1 2, I, I'm almost certain it'll be 9 2 1, if, if it's actually that close to 9 1 2, like, things will just work out differently, I actually wonder though, if you're like, sitting at 9 1 1, and like, you're pretty confident you make, you will be in the asymmetric cut region, when you like if you, like, lose, but but if you tie, like, you're, like, 50 50 in the region, like, are you supposed to play? Like, does it depend on the matchup? Like, I wonder, like, what's the top tables gonna be like? Huh?
Cameron:2 would be locked if
Abaan:They might not be locked, they might have to still play the asymmetric cutter, like, the people who, like, make it in through asymmetric cut, right? Like, the Liam situation, essentially.
Cameron:Yeah, but I'd rather be
Abaan:or 6th.
Cameron:I might be,
Abaan:You think you're
Liam:Yeah, no, dude, it's cause, it's cause everybody else who is X1
Cameron:I think I
Liam:have to play, bro. I was the only
Cameron:I would, I would think I would ID at that point, because they're just like, well, I'm in top 8, and if I lose this asymmetric cut, then like, I'm,
Abaan:out on, like,
Cameron:but like, but, but I'm not dropping out of top 16. All of a sudden.
Abaan:No, but if you lose that if you were able to ID, you probably don't drop out of top 16 with a loss, either.
Cameron:Who knows, it depends on how close it is,
Abaan:Yeah, of
Liam:yeah, but, I think that's like the logical way to think about it. You basically just have to play like one more round, unless you're like the top seed or something
Abaan:But, okay, but now, like, take it the other way, bro, like, that means, like, you're getting rewarded for actually popping off at a tournament, and, like, actually getting your top 8 spot, like, getting a buy in cut for, like, having a crazy run. Like, how many people go, like, 12 0, and then they just, like, lose in top 8? I mean, they could still just lose in top 8, but at least they didn't, like, go 12 0 and lose in, like top 16, you know? They got a, they got a buy. Like, if you think about it as cut is top 16 now, and the top seed just gets a buy into top 8, like, that's, like, crazy. Pretty lit if you think about it like that.
Liam:I think that is
Abaan:Just, it's just reframing
Liam:lit. Pretty lit.
Cameron:player, the best player just gets to walk it.
Abaan:Exactly. Top six Yeah, they're doing a top 16 cutout worlds, but
Liam:Yeah, no, I think, I think if you think about it as just like an extra round, it's like, you know, it's a pretty logical thing, right?
Abaan:I think these
Liam:Just, it feels bad, bro.
Abaan:sure, I think these tournaments don't get too big to like have like a top 8, like top 16 was always like I don't know, when I was a kid, it was like Top 32, and like, sure, it felt bad when I, like, you seed first, and you have to beat the 32nd seed and the 16th seed, because that's not a free game, by any means, it's like, you actually have to win, right?
Liam:Yeah, right, exactly. It's struggle better than you get cooked. Mm hmm.
Abaan:but I think it's, I think it's fair enough, like, I think Top 16 is a happy middle ground. Top 32 felt like you have to win too many rounds, even after you seeded first, but Top 16 feels like, oh, like, this is, like, a good amount of players from a thousand people to, like, have to continue on to the next round, I don't know. It feels, like, ridiculous, like, these two thousand person tournaments are, like, getting a Top 8. Like, Worlds is obviously smaller than that, but, like, Top 8 just seems too narrow.
Cameron:I mean, Worlds will be bigger than some regionals were last year. Like, a good amount of regionals were last year, roughly. Because, like, the average regional size was 1, 100. And we've kind of doubled that in the last
Abaan:Wasn't like Arlington, the one you talked about, wasn't it like the biggest regional at the time? Like it's so crazy, like every single regional we play these days is like the biggest regional ever.
Cameron:biggest event, if it's NAIC.
Liam:know. Kieran
Abaan:yeah, I don't know. It's like even hard to imagine, like, I mean obviously I played Pokemon, it was like 500 and then like now I'm playing with 2, 000, but like I never got to play that middling, middling region, where like you can actually get away with like 34, 35 match points and make cuts.
Cameron:I mean, last year I was, I was on the bubble at 10 3 1, because we had five rounds at the, at the, at the end of the regional. And Kieran Ferrer bubbled in, and Kieran Ferrer bubbled in, and Gabe Smart and I bubbled out at 9 10 10. I think that was just a
Liam:Farah. That guy is actually insane plot armor,
Cameron:and then, and then you, so, and you think about that and I'm 10 3 1 at NAIC and I ID and I get 28th and I was just like on the high end because my resistance was sick, right, like that went all the way down to like past 64, I think, my record, I
Liam:you're actually tough for that, bro. That was like, actually a Max Aura moment.
Abaan:cannot believe
Liam:into 32. Ooh. Ooh.
Abaan:caches at, he always has to, like, salesman his way into the last round. Like, last round of the tournament, he has to go like, Yo, let me offer you nothing, and in exchange, I get three bands. And the guy's like, yeah, bet. Where do I sign?
Cameron:The guy got two bans!
Abaan:Oh, I forgot, yeah, yeah, you're right. I forgot that TopPTC4 was still caching. But, like, at Worlds, bro, you really scammed that guy at Worlds last year. Yeah.
Cameron:my goodness. There's always, you know, you gotta,
Abaan:Someone I know?
Cameron:money. You gotta steal the money. I didn't know, he ended up making the, he made the decision, alright?
Liam:He's a salesman. Oh my
Cameron:Someone input my deck wrong on Pokestats, whoever did, thank you very much.
Abaan:I love that, bro. It's people who have no motive whatsoever. Like, at Pokestops LA, I was Goldango. I don't know where that came from, bro. I just have some guy looking out for me from above. Why would they put me in as Goldango? it's like, yeah, I don't know. Like, who are these, like, saints who just do these things for no reason? Like, no one knows who they are, they just kinda get in there. Respect.
Liam:Crazy work.
Abaan:Do you want to talk about what we've been testing a little bit? Feels like we've kind of moved up from format discussion. I have some
Liam:I guess I'll start with my biggest takeaway so far. I
Cameron:Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I think before we, like, get into that, like, between last week's episode and this week's episode, I think there was, like Is there two money matches between you two?
Abaan:oh yeah, sure,
Cameron:Oh yeah, let's start with that. Yeah, so how did that go? Yeah. I thought,
Liam:and Abad have been running money matches, Conquest, Best of Seven
Cameron:through that
Liam:now play two. You know, you gotta, gotta have a little bit of break time in between, right, to think about like the decks and stuff, right?
Cameron:Goes up.
Abaan:Yeah, Liam and I have actually, like, the thing about playing Conquest against someone you talk to a lot about Pokemon is actually, like, a complete mind game, okay? The first one came down to a Game 7 Pidget 1v1 that I ended up winning, even though Liam, like, let me go first, like, he cho he got to choose and I got to go first. I just hit the nuts. Beat him quickly. And then, I think the second series, we both came to the conclusion, like, individually, that we could not let Pidget get through. That we both thought we were such, like, the other person was such a Pidget head, that, like, us not bringing Pidget would, like, be, like, game breaking. So we both, like, tried to aggressively counter it, right? We had, like, or at least I personally, I brought, like, Garde with two bosses. I brought, like Zardusknor, I brought Raging Bolt, and then I bought Regidrago, which was a huge mistake, because I hadn't played a single game of that. And Liam Lineup was the exact same as mine, except he substituted the Regidrago for a Dragapult. And yeah, I just the cards didn't go my way it's just unlucky. I won the first series 4 3 and then lost the second one 4 2, so we're we're squared up. Yeah, you wanna add anything, Liam, after winning the most recent one? The defending champ?
Liam:no. Yeah, I, they're good. It definitely, definitely a lot of mind games, because, yeah, we know each other's tendencies, I think. Not like super well, but a little bit, right?
Abaan:It was kind of Vince, because I was like, the thing is, like, you'll play, like, a testing set, right? Like, a bunch of testing sets, you're like, wow, this deck feels great. And then it's, like, It's confusing, you're like, did he feel like that deck looked great? Like, is he gonna bring it, or like, what, like, I was like, playing Vax and I was loving it, and I was just owning Liam over and over and over again, and he was just convinced I was gonna bring Vax.
Liam:yeah, I, I was. See, he's not lying. Because Baxia is like the deck that's like hardest to counter, I think. It just like, it does what it does really well.
Abaan:You were gonna play a bunch of decks with like, Hella Divas and stuff, and that's why I was like, alright, I'll get him with the Bolt and the Drago, I'll get him, I'll get in there, and then that deck sucks. Drago sucks.
Liam:Yeah, I've been, I've been Devo fiending pretty hard. I think Devo's like, it's like not great, but it's it's good into Zahr, it's good into Pigea, it's good into C Pow. Those are all decks I thought that a bond would bring. Yeah,
Abaan:slips out from under me, like, I the first series, it just beat Max and got out, and then the second series, I believe, it just, like I think I just queued Raging Bolt into it, and I just got owned, and I was like, this is so unfortunate, like,
Liam:yeah.
Abaan:Dude, the deck that you struggle with the most getting out is, is Zard, actually, I don't know how, like, I, whenever I play Zard, I'm like, this deck is such a free win, like, I'm, I'll tell you now, I think I'm bringing Zard to, like, every Conquest we play, cause, like, The deck is, like, a free win. Yeah,
Liam:I know, the deck is like super good, I
Abaan:it
Liam:yeah dude, I feel like has Zord had the hardest time getting out? Yeah?
Abaan:It has, like, in that last series, you beat Raging Bolt after that crazy sequence, but then we played the, the Drago, the Regidrago game for fun, and I was gonna own you, right? So, like, You had to sack
Liam:I guess. I guess I was pretty close to getting out. I felt like, yeah, I felt like I've done a, I've had some like, miracle, miracle runs with Guardi and, and Loststone. Like, getting those decks out, I then thought, I thought the Iron, I brought Iron Thorns in the first one that we played, and it lost to like, it lost like twice in a row which is pretty bad in a best of seven. So I thought, dude, I was writing down the matchup spread and I was like, 100 0 this, 100 0 this, 100 0 this, I'm starting
Abaan:have Zard as
Liam:game. Like no, I had, I had Zard as like a 60 40.
Abaan:That's crazy, bro. That is not that cannot be 60 40. There's no way.
Liam:yeah, I thought, I thought I was gonna get through my deck faster to find the hammers, like, more aggressively. And I thought,
Abaan:you can roll the hammer offscreen and just tell me the result. Then, like, then maybe. Then maybe it's 60 40. hammers are anywhere near 50 50, it's over.
Liam:Yeah, no, I mean, you're right, that Lost Storm's deck was just, like, absolutely terrible. It literally only beat the Lugia, and like, only by, like, a hair, bro.
Abaan:Yeah, it's because I didn't play second bear. If I played second bear, I think I would've beat you, but oh well.
Liam:Yeah, I think.
Abaan:Oh, and I played the Klefki. I should've played Klefki and Lugia. That's like the sauce. I even talked about it on the pod, and I just didn't, like, I, I'm gonna be honest, I was so lazy, I just ripped Alex and Meshki's, like, exact 60. Didn't think about any of the cards, and it just didn't work out. Yeah.
Liam:Yeah.
Abaan:It's weird, if you're like, if you're interested in doing something over the over like this like, weird period, like playing Conquistador Friends is like super fun, because like it's not even, you're kind of divorced from reality, like there's a lot of stuff in Metadex that just exists for like, very other specific Metadex, and you can just ignore it if you just think that they're not going to bring it, right? And like, the mind game, right? And like, basically it's like a, it's a new deck building challenge given that you're just trying to beat
Liam:It's the interleaving, bro. I actually think Like, practicing is one of the most, like, slept on things in Pokemon. Cam knows this now, too. I've completely divorced myself from flowcharts and, like, meta and, like, matchups and all that stuff. It's just about, like, oring up and practicing. But I think practicing is also one of the, like, hardest things to do because we don't have, like, an engine to eval yourself. Like, the closest thing you have to that is paying Tord 100 bucks like, for an hour of his time to look over your shoulder. But, like Yeah, I think it's hard to identify when you've gone wrong, right? Like, without an engine or something like that, but being able to find, like, improvements in your gameplay is, like, the biggest improvement that you can do, because it's general. Right? Like, I think, I think trying to, like, up your skills each meta, like, individually, where you're, like, only good in this meta because you've memorized, like, X, Y, and Z flowcharts, or whatever. Is like, not the best way to go about things, because the game isn't even like a flowchart game. Like, it is at like the lowest levels, but, you know, once you get higher, it's about the improvisation. You
Abaan:but I think like all the inspiration we have about Pokemon can be drawn from like chess, and like, it's just you have to like kind of stretch some of the analogies, but like, I think that what I was saying is like, most chess players, they have like leaks, like, obviously like chess is an objective game, like there's the best move, right, but like, it's after the opening, but most people just have leaks in certain types of positions, like, oh, this chess player, like, there's no such thing as play style, like play, like, yeah. You aren't supposed to place positions, like, more aggressively because you're an aggressive player. But you do have, like, you do have a brain that, like, can sometimes be, like, dispositioned to, like, oh, I really want to place aggressively, and so I will, whether it's correct or not, right? And so just identifying, like, like, you shouldn't do things in a way because your playstyle's like that, but you should be able to recognize, like, maybe the line that's popping into my head is too, like, biased towards one end of, like, the game. Like, one type of play, and like, being able to like, analyze like, oh, how can I fix that? Like, how can I fix leaks in my games, right? Cause like, there's some chess players who will play like, positional games like, perfectly. They'll play like, the boring, like, I just maneuvered my knight around, moved like, my bishop into the perfect square, and like, choked you to death. And there's some chess players who play like, the, I'll just sack this piece, and like, I'll do like, a hundred move sequence, and like, get you like, eventually, right? And like, I think there's a lot of parallels to Pokemon, and just like, People, like, oversimplify it, so then it loses some of the meaning, but just, like, knowing, like, I personally, I'm definitely, like, more that positional type of player, like, I I do have, like, some issues where, like, sometimes, like, I'll get into, like, sequences, like, or, like, I just don't want to pull the trigger and, like, get into a sequence where it's, like, oh, I'm gonna do this, they're gonna Iona me back, then I'm gonna have to, like, draw the nuts, and, but that's my highest winning percentage line, like, I am, like, very worried about doing that, I don't like doing it, and, like, I try to, like, identify, like, spots where, like, I'm clearly playing too slow.
Liam:I think, yeah, I think if we're talking about our weaknesses, I think I struggle with the micro decisions the most I think, I think my macro is usually, like, pretty solid and of course, I'm I'm not, like, perfect in any aspect of Pokemon, right, but I think my macro is generally stronger than my micro decision making. But I also want to say, I think it's really interesting that you bring that up, because I approach this problem of play styles completely differently, and, like, solving player tendencies, where instead of trying to, like, remove my tendencies, because I don't think I can do that, right, like, everybody always has tendencies, I think it's important to just note them, and then try to put yourself into positions where those tendencies, Like, turn into, turn into advantages, as opposed to disadvantages. And like, trying to capitalize on those tendencies more. I assume it's somewhat more of a combination,
Abaan:Yeah, it's funny you say that because I thought that exact same thing. It's like, well, if I like playing everything slow, maybe I need to play a deck that, like, inherently always wins when it goes slow, right? But I think that Pokemon in general, like, you can never have one or the other, like, linearly. Like, the most aggressive deck ever. Like, dude, a great example. I was talking to Shinoahe about this. Raging Bolt vs Pidgeot. All you have to do is Raging Bull. I'm going to leave it as a spoiler because I don't know if I'm going to play Pigeon or not, but if you're playing Raging Bull, all you have to do is like, not go crazy and go to three way too fast. Just the turn before you're about to go to three, just take a deep breath, take an extra turn, attach like two more energy to your teal mass, and then once you're in blood moon range, like, try to also jump from four to two. to zero. That's like the ideal, like, path, right? It's so hard for them to deal with that. But look, every Raging Bull player, all they know how to do is like, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, that's like, what I'm doing, right? And like, I think if people like, follow your philosophy, they're like, well, I want to play a deck that puts me in situations where I go fast, so like, I'm going fast, that's like, playstyle, like, that's my, like, bias. But it's like, every deck has both aspects, so like, I think it's a, like, while you should play a deck that tries to do that, This is my bias play, and then like, maybe like, taking a deep breath and trying to do the other one. Or like, thinking about the other one, at least. You don't have to do the other one, necessarily, right?
Liam:Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. You can't completely remove, like, slow or fast or, like, positional aspects from your games either, right? Like, even as much as you try even with Sunraging Bolt, right?
Abaan:By the way, the Raging Bolt deck is, like, if we're gonna talk about like, specific decks, Raging Bolt is crazy. Like, the Japanese list with Rescue Stretcher, Rescue Stretcher is like, Or not res, whatever, Nightly Stretcher. Yeah, it for, like, it's a new card, it gets a Pokemon or a basic energy. It's so versatile, like, you just Pokestop and you discard, like, before you Pokestop and discard, like, a Raging Bolt, an energy, and, like, an item, and you'd be, like, a little annoyed, right? Now it's like, wow, I have the stretcher in hand, like, I just basically played a nest ball, like, do the, like, and you can infinitely bundle, essentially, like, five bundles a game if you need it, and, like, It's just the best draw off an Iona to 2, like, it's, it's nice, like, you can pokestop away, like, the Fezendipity, the new, like, If Something Died Less Turn Draw 3 like, old Oricorio, and, like, if it's in your discard, then you just draw a stretcher off an Iona, like, you just rip it, or you can just bench the Fezendipity early, like, the deck feels even more potent than it did last format, but it does have the simple, like, if the prize trade is losing, you're going to lose, like, there's nothing you can, there's no, like, cheating with Iron Hands, etc. You just lose.
Liam:Yeah, I think the, the deck always wanted to play, like, raw, and like, some people did play it because like, yeah, the pokey stops can be super brutal, and like, you sometimes just want to use more attackers than you, than you have some games, right? And I think, I think Stretcher is a great way to fix this problem, and like, access volume, while also staying super consistent. Which is like, really, really strong for the deck.
Abaan:Also, I don't, like, I was actually thinking about playing Raging Bull, and I was like, the problem is that there's no way to play the deck without playing a heavy catcher engine. Like, you just fundamentally can't play, like, two boss and use boss consistently. Like, you kind of just have to catcher and bundle, and that's gotta, like, get you there, right? So, like, it's gonna be frustrating when, like, like, you're in a game at Worlds, and it's just, like you have, you have to hit a catcher and then hit heads to win the game if you're gonna play the stack, right?
Liam:I don't know, I've been playing, I've been playing no catchers. Maybe you should be playing catchers. But. I know Noe Yoshida, he he's a big Raging Bolt head, I guess. He said he wanted to play something brain dead for NAIC, so he basically grinded Bolt non stop for like two weeks leading up to the event. And he ended up on a no catcher list with four Ultra Ball and Luminion. To just lean on the boss
Abaan:I think the fundamental problem with that is that you don't have enough energy to spare to have both Raging Bullets have an excess energy, right? So like, often you'll get into situations where it's like, well, I can't have an extra energy on both Raging Bullets, so I guess I'll take the extra one off the active. And if they hit like, CC Radzard or something like that, it's just impossible. Like, you can't boss and Sauda for knockout in the same turn per game, right?
Liam:Yeah, I think you have to be playing the Prime, because you're right, like, you don't have access to enough Gusts then, like, you do have to item Gusts at some point
Abaan:But finding that one prime on that one turn after already finding the whole combo is like, frustrating. It's difficult.
Liam:maybe, I mean, I don't know, Deck is super omega gas, you find everything you need, I think, huh.
Abaan:Sometimes, but, it's like, ordering, right? Sometimes you just draw the catcher too soon, and you have to squawk it away, etc, or like, Raging Bull to first attack it away, and like, sometimes you draw the catcher, you just miss the catcher, like, Having one unconditional item gust? Bad. Having four conditional, as in you need to flip heads, item gusts? Perfect. Like, every single catcher can be, like, prime catcher, if you're lucky, you know? Just hit if you
Liam:Yeah, I mean,
Cameron:You should have two, but maybe you Hyrule and get
Abaan:it'd be nice. Exactly.
Liam:Catcher could very well be correct, but I don't think it's like impossible to play with no,
Abaan:Sure.
Liam:I think,
Abaan:You know what matchup I thought was interesting? I've been playing, we've played what, like, 20 games of this matchup, I guess, over the course of the last two days, is the Zard vs. Raging Bull matchup. And it feels, it's like the old Roaring Moon matchup, but if Roaring Moon's, like, Galarian Moltres managed to kill Zard in one hit, that's like the big factor that changes it for me. It's like, the fact that Teal Mask on the bench with one energy is a constant Zard threat means that you really do have to go, like, keep no two prizes on your board, Go to five to six, and then Zard has to take the two prizes back, and typically you're going to take that first prize with Sandy Shox if possible, right? So Zard has to hit the response CC, and then the Teal Mask will kill you, and then, like, you have to hit another Zard, and like, it's just, you get there, like, half the time. Like, it's really 50
Liam:like, you have to win on board, right, because they always have it. They always have it.
Abaan:Because, like, the old problem with Roaring Moon is, like, after Roaring Moon did, like, the Kamikaze, hit themselves for 200, you get, like, Heat Tackle or something, like, you can never cheese them with a 1 prizer other than Radzard, right? So what I've been doing in the matchup sometimes, to, like, respond to this, is when they take that first prize, if possible, I like to use a 4 energy Radzard, actually. If I, if I can get away with it, to use a 4 entry Radsart to take this prize, and then if they if they take a, if they knock that out, right, then like, I'm able to like, reset the prize trade, I can maybe rod the enemies back in, and then play like 4 4 and win. And if they don't knock out the 4 entry Radsart and they insist on like, knocking out Pidget or something, then like, then the Radsart is like an implicit threat that they will just like, sit there, right? So, I mean, that's like the method that has been working the best for me, to
Liam:hitting with it early is the best way to, like, force the issue, right, because you don't have to remove a two prizer from your board when you hit with it. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. You gotta hit a lot of pieces of Zard to make it all come together, right.
Abaan:Yeah, you have a plan that works every time, but it just, or like, you have a plan that like, theoretically works, but hitting every piece in consecutive orders just has been difficult.
Liam:Yes. A quick testament to the the no catcher list that NoYoshida ran at NAIC. He ran it with the Nate Kaplan, and they, like, did not drop a set. Like, they went, like, XO in sets against everything non Guarda4. So yeah, they did pretty hot.
Abaan:I think the catcher list, though, is like, very important to trying to beat Guard of War ever, right? Like, you just have to catch her a Kirlia early, catch her another Kirlia, like, have them, like, kind of
Cameron:Hit Gardi, yeah, yeah.
Liam:And, and I mean, it's, it's NAIC, right? Like the first few rounds are always kind of gutted. Like it's, it's not a great not a great sample, but that is, that, that can exist without catchers. Right.
Abaan:Okay, but they drop okay, the important concept, though, that, like I've, like, heard, like, other people talk about, is that Guardi was, like, everywhere, right? All the top players were playing Guardi, right? So, Yeah, they didn't drop a set to non Guardi players, but that just means they didn't really drop a set to people who aren't necessarily top top players. Like, sure, there were top players on other stuff, like Tord obviously played, like, Pulsar, but I'm just saying the vast majority of top players were on Guardi. So, like, the fact that they dropped only sets to Guardi is kind of like, just, it doesn't really mean anything. It just means, like, oh, they just lost to some top players, and, like, those top players might have just owned them with Zara, they might have owned
Liam:Yeah. I, I agree. It's, it's not like a great sample, but you know, that is that's legit. Might be better with catchers, but it's legit.
Cameron:And so, Zard, Zard Pidgeot Dusknoir, is that also just legit? I mean, we all assumed it is.
Liam:Yeah. Deck is insane.
Abaan:think It actually, like, the reason Zard fell off in the last format is that control and, like, all these matchups that used to be, like, 50 50 for Zard, it just, like, slowly got worse and worse. I honestly think that deck is, like, pretty bad. Old Zard in the sense that it's very consistent, but it does just have like a bunch of 55 45s. But it's like, it's like a different kind of 55 45 than Raging Bolt's 55 45s. Like, Raging Bolt, when they have a 55 45, it's like, you either hit everything and you just like, blow them out of the water, or you just like, whiff and lose. With Zard's 55 45s, it's more like, there's like a lot of steps in the game where you get to like, do interesting stuff, like outplay, like not outplay necessarily, but just like, make like, good plays that like, You have
Liam:aura up, right? Like yeah. You,
Abaan:Like, it's 50 by 45, but like, I think that, like, against someone you think is, like, way less skilled than you, it's, like, almost 70 30, right? Like, a lot of these matchups.
Liam:It's a high aura deck.
Abaan:of course. Like, make sure to give that disclaimer for all the, all the decks we're playing now. Like, give a little aura reading, or,
Liam:Yeah, dude.
Cameron:Or a reading out of ten. So what was that? what was Raging Bolt's aura reading?
Liam:it's, it's very low.
Abaan:very low, very low, like, insanely
Liam:it's like a three, like
Cameron:Hey, catcher's list won! Your catcher's list won! Alright, and Charizard?
Liam:I, I, I think catchers are a high Aura card. I love some catchers. Yeah.
Abaan:that's the one thing about Vancouver, I did enjoy playing Zorobox, but using catchers in Miraidon did seem like a blast. You know what's funny? Every single format, like when the new popular deck comes out, my initial list takes whatever list exists and adds like catchers, and like everyone just thinks my lists are like gas. Like I remember before NAIC, or not NAIC, was it EUIC? I was playing like that future hands list with 4 catcher, and I was like owning everyone, and everyone was like, Yo, guys, we gotta try a bond like Future hands list guys, it's crazy. And then like, just like, variants like evens out and they're like, oh this deck's kind of mid, like.
Liam:Yeah, bro, I think, we were just talking about this, I think, before the pod but yeah, my threshold now has kind of changed, like, Aura is a good indicator for threshold. It's somewhat like what Jake Earhart was telling me on Twitter, I think, like a few months ago, about like, dude, I just love to play complicated decks. And that sentiment is correct but I would never say it like that, I would just say, I have this deck has Aura. And that means, because it's a little bit
Abaan:Yeah, a little translation for people on the pod, for people, for like, older listeners, yeah.
Liam:because it's got aura, like, I think that the deck has like a lower threshold for like its actual concrete matchup percentage for me to consider it like the best play.
Abaan:It's just that when you're losing as Charizard, Pidget, Dusknoir, You can almost always pull something crazy out, like I don't know, I'll like, use Rad's Art a bunch and like, maybe you'll miss the Gust or something, like, you always have like, outs, like, very nice, like, real, like, 10 20 percent outs, right? And if you have like, a 20 percent out in every single game you play, like, one out of five games on average, you should just win. With Raging Bull, it's like, once you've like, fallen behind or whatever, there's nothing, like, a toddler could just like, walk it down and beat you after that point, you know?
Liam:yeah, exactly. Like, the expected win rate, like, I think you should try like, envisioning your tournament, and like, what happens. It's of course very difficult to visualize like, like a win no matter what you do. Like, it requires an insane, access to an insane win rate somehow, but like, when you play a high aura deck, you can reasonably, like, vision yourself winning all these individual rounds, like, individually, just like win, win, win, win, win, whereas when you play a deck that's like a coin flippy deck on the wins, right, where like, you know, it's like a raising bullet and you just have to flip, like. You have to like genuinely flip like super duper well and just run super duper hot. It's hard to imagine
Abaan:Do you, Liam, do you I feel like this is a weird thing I do, but I feel like you're so similar to me that, like, somehow, like, you'll also do this, like, do you actually, like, think about what each round will be, and, like, sometimes, like, give yourself, like, a mock tournament, and, like, own it, like, oh, yeah, I'll play, like, this matchup, it's, like, an auto win, win that one, then I'll play this matchup, just, like, have, like, a 9
Liam:I mean like,
Abaan:tournament in your head, just, like, sitting there?
Liam:I don't, I don't, I don't do it that aggressively like choosing the matchup. Like, what's he gonna flip over this time? But I mean,
Abaan:No, no, before the tournament, like, on my own, like, on my own time, like, just sometimes I'll be thinking about what deck I'm gonna play, and, like, have a run a little mock tournament, then I go 9 0 every time.
Cameron:Hahaha. Haha. Hahaha,
Liam:that a little bit, like, I don't, I don't like sit down and like intentionally do it, but you know, I'd be like thinking in bed the night
Abaan:Yes, it's not yeah, yeah, it's not at my desk, like, it's mock tournament time. Ahahaha!
Cameron:This is right before you're about to fall
Liam:Yeah, yeah, I'd be thinking in bed the night before the event, I'd just be like, I'd use it more to like, imagine, maybe, maybe this is like confirmation bias that has built in like a terrible habit over the years, but this happened to me, and like, it was like 2019, it was like my first year as a senior, and the night before the event, I had, I had made this like, Hitmonchan Trevenant deck, And I was like, I just, like, I just imagined myself playing this deck tomorrow, like, I closed my eyes at night and I see myself playing this deck, and I was like, alright bro, I'm running it down with this, like, sleeve it up, we're running this tomorrow instead of, you know, like, whatever solid meta option I've had, and then I top 8'd, and that was like my best result I think yet, as a, as a senior, cause this was like my first year in seniors or whatever, and so I was like, The method works. Time to stick it around, bro, for whatever I see myself playing when I close my eyes at night. That's the that's the deck to send.
Abaan:it's weird, like, you think that someone who's practiced a lot, like, you're supposed to play the thing you practice, et cetera, et cetera. But nothing, like, and that's kind of what I've been doing this year, and it's like, it's whatever. It's like, but the real enjoyment from Pokemon, for me, is like, you show up to the event, like, the day before, and someone, like, hands you the sauce, and they're like, bro, Just trust, like, I don't care what you're playing, it's not better than this. And then you're like, ah, nah, I'll, I'll, I got you, and then they like, for some reason, like, so, it always happens that the deck you've been working on gets like perfectly countered by the deck they've been working on. They just own you like six times in a row, and you're like, oh, I have nothing to say, hand it over. like the good old days, that's like
Liam:Yeah, no, dude, I, like, I swear, man, it was, when you, showing up with, showing 60 cards is, like, way worse feeling than, like, I got no idea what I'm doing. I'm gonna show up. Sit in the tank for a few hours and see what happens when I walk out.
Abaan:I've been basically showing up with 60, 65 cards, and a bunch of cards that I like play, like I bring just to play with other people with, but like,
Liam:Yeah, same, same. I've been doing that for like the last, like, two events,
Abaan:Yeah, but it sucks, bro, like, it's like, the correct, it's like, the correct thing, but it's not, like, it's not good for, like, life enjoyment, you know? Like, it's not, it's not
Liam:I think, like, yeah, I mean, I only do that when I'm, like, relatively locked into a deck. Like, I don't, I have no qualms about switching, but I'm just like, dude, I think this deck is great, and, like, there's nothing that can happen in the next 24 hours that will change my mind. I don't, like, I don't feel like, oh, I've got, like, so many hours on this deck, I can't, I can't switch off. Or something, like, if I thought it was bad, I'd switch in a heartbeat, but, like,
Abaan:It's like, it's like the confidence that you've seen so much volume of the deck being good, that unless there's some, like, fundamental plan that you missed out on that people are owning you with, or like, the meta is like, this deck that you thought was like a 5 percent deck is like a 15 percent deck, or something, something crazy like that,
Liam:you get some crazy new
Abaan:You just know, like, that even if you run I've run, like, terrible on the day before tournaments, like, first of all, recently I've been, like, saving money and, like, flying in, like, at terrible times, I don't even get to test before the tournament, but, like, when I do show up earlier, like, the day before testing and stuff like that, it's, like, nothing will change my mind because I I've seen the stack's volume of being good, so I know that, like, I could I could lose 10 games in a row and I still know that, like, that was, like, a like, that was a small sample size, like, whatever, or, like, that's, like, a like a fluke like it's fine i don't get like worried i something has to fundamentally change like something like oh the meta is different everyone's playing x card that beats me or like something like that has to happen for me to like be convinced to change
Liam:I agree. But yeah, I think there's really nothing like showing up with with no idea what you're gonna play. It's like,
Abaan:yeah let's like let's just stop testing now and figure out our worlds you know we have two days
Liam:yeah, that's like max aura bro. No dude, I would actually do that if like, I have to figure out the best way to practice bro, like, I just, I need to improve my skill at the game. Like I don't need to improve my like, my skill. Oh, you know, X beats Y, Y beats Z, meta understanding, bro. I just have to be better at the game, bro. Like, I have to, like, actually practice, bro. But I don't know exactly the best way to do that.
Cameron:what you need to do is you need to, you're coming to Seattle, right? August 3rd to August 10th. And you just need to play with Eban and I, and we'll just
Liam:Yeah, no,
Cameron:Well this'll all increase our Auris. I
Liam:go crazy. But yeah, like, I have to figure out a good way to practice. And I mean, that's, like, the hardest question, right? Like,
Abaan:I actually think like maybe at some point, we'll, we'll, like the conquest thing is fun, but I think the most thing, the most beneficial thing for both of us is just the run. Like we run a lot of testing games, but we can run more of like the PCG sim, like the, like in the style of our conquest matches, but like. Like, trying to beat each other, but with, like, very standard meta lists. Because the problem with the Conquest stuff is it becomes, like, a open it's like a closed deck less, like, masterclass. Yeah, it's
Liam:Yeah.
Abaan:Like, it's stupid for improvement. It's pretty fun, like, as its own thought experiment. And,
Liam:Yeah, dude, no, I think something people should do more of is less, like, games grinding and more, more emphasis on the games themselves. Like, play, like, a one hour game where, like, you actually, like, think and talk through, like, every single action you make.
Cameron:think when Finn and I play, We're playing, testing for worlds. I think what you need to do is just like test extensively for short periods of time a single deck and like learn all its matchups very quickly and then move on to the next deck and you can't like fall in love because I think it's very easy to just play with like the deck that you've been playing a lot recently because you just like Been used to it, and, to like, just like test,
Abaan:me right now, like, not even on a Pokemon level, just, like, a life level.
Cameron:and,
Abaan:keep it pushin bro. Gotta keep it pushin ha! ha! ha!
Cameron:you just gotta like test them all out. Like we would test like one deck in the morning when we were in Japan, and then we had lunch, and then we'd come back and we'd just like test a different deck, like seven matchups, and then the next day we'd do it, and
Abaan:probably that's too fast to turn around. Like, give give give each deck like a day, you know?
Cameron:Well, we only had like, well, we had like three. 10 decks and then you know you have to test like one to two decks a day and then you go to like a couple of your homies who are like, I don't test ARC so
Liam:dude, that's what the ore is all about, bro, is being able to extract a lot of knowledge from a very few games, right? Like, you shouldn't be using games to try and simulate win rate. You should be trying to, like, you play the matchup once, and all the cards are on the table, and they all just speak to you and tell you what the percentages are, and you can extract, like, a
Abaan:What if you just, like, instead of doing that, you just, like, thought you don't have to wait for the cards to tell you anything, you just, like, looked at the cards, and you, like, used your own
Cameron:like, what are you what are your outs? What are your outs?
Liam:Like, if you exist only in the theory, like, how do you set up the initial position, bro?
Abaan:Oh no no, I'm just kidding, I'm just saying the way you're saying like you have to wait for cards to like think speak to you, I was like what if you like played the game and like just like looked at the cards and said they don't speak to you,
Liam:Yeah, you just set the two decks down on the table, and you don't even set up, but you just let them speak. Yeah, I mean, exactly, bro. I mean,
Abaan:Okay, but I actually think that like, it's weird. I think that in, like, this phase of testing, like, this far out from the tournament, you can literally sim certain matchups, and just simu Okay, there's no amount of thinking that can tell you the Raging Bolt vs Zard matchup, because it's truly a, like, a, who hits what, how often. And, like, you just have to run, like, 20 games, and, like, it doesn't even take very long. You just run 20 games, you're like, okay, I think it's actually, like, Very, very close to 50 50. And there's certain matchups that are truly just thinking matchups. Like, I don't bother playing, like, 20 games of Pidget Control matchups. Most of them I just play, like, 5 to 10. And I'm like, okay, well, I, I, from this I can see who would win how often, right? Like, I don't know, like,
Liam:Yeah.
Abaan:have to be able to do both. You can't, and it's like, that's why testing is so tricky. You can't take your 5 game sample size and like, use its win percentage as anything, but you can use like, the vibe of the game, like the, like, what was happening, and like, how often you think that, like, how lucky was anyone getting, like, if this seems like the standard line that'll happen like 90 percent of the time, then like, you can just like, you can just extrapolate that out, right? Or like, and there's certain matchups where it's like, You need to just, like, test it. Like, most, like, Bax matchups, Raging Bolt matchups, you just need to see, like, how often do I hit, like, everything from the start of the game to the end of the game to win it.
Liam:Yeah.
Abaan:hard to give, like, a blanket statement of, like, how much data you need to, like, be
Liam:No, yeah, like, I think
Cameron:And I think it helps to have multiple good players because, as we said, like, everyone's playstyle is different, like, how you can
Liam:yeah, people have blind spots,
Cameron:uh, so how you approach a matchup is, like, very different, so, I think, going back to that, like, my playstyle is, I just find, typically what I do is I just find something that's kind of broken, and jam it down, and hope that it breaks through the opponent, and that shows up in a couple different decks, like, Fake Evolt Path, Mew Path, Judge Path, Iron Thorns, like, it's just like,
Abaan:really don't like Rulebox Pokémon having abilities. That seems to be your only
Cameron:no items, it's just like you know, I kind of just have like one style, and like a lot of
Abaan:Pokémon using an ability, Shinoa is cooked. cannot win.
Cameron:And I don't know, sometimes when people are playing the deck, I just feel like they're playing a little I'm not sure if I'm being too passive or just not aggressive enough. They're just like, oh, why would I prime catcher here? It's like, no, because you're just trying to like ability lock with Ironthorns and just like hope that they just fall to pieces right now. You can't let them get going at all. And they're like, oh, why don't I just like sit back and try to charge up a turn.
Liam:dude, that's,
Cameron:But that's like, and that could happen for me for like a more controlly deck. Like it just depends on you know, how you're poaching the matchup with a certain deck.
Liam:I, I think that that somewhat touches on something I was telling Abad, which is, I think variety is, like, super important when you're practicing. Like, when you're trying to get better at the game, putting yourself in a variety of situations is really important. That's why, that's why I think the TCG Live meta, that might be a whole thing, bro. Like,
Abaan:I will say
Liam:Live, hit the ladder, that actually might be
Abaan:You've like, kind of convinced me, because I do play a lot of games by myself, and like, a lot of them follow a similar pattern. And like, maybe that's like, very close to optimal, but like, sometimes, like, I definitely think, the position speaks for itself. Like, in the sense that, like, I can't, you can't force, if you're playing the same pattern of game, maybe you truly are drawing hands that are supposed to be played like that. But there's definitely some spots where I just have, like, weaknesses, where I just like, didn't, like, Because it's hard to like put yourself in like a blind perspective and you're like you don't know like oh I'm supposed to just pull the trigger and like go for it because like So I see the other person's hand and like you're not supposed to use that and like I try my best not to but sometimes You just know like if they did go for the all in pull the trigger play They would just lose on the spot. I have it all right, and then you're just like but it's hard to analyze like Analyze like oh that game is supposed to be over like right now because they're supposed to pull the trigger That's their highest percentage line. I'm supposed to just have it and then that's the end of the game That's how it's supposed to go, right? And I thought it was interesting to know like I feel like in a lot of ways we complement each other Well, because like when I play you a lot of times you're just doing something ridiculous Like, you're using, like, a lot of resources, and most of the time, okay, not most of the time, like, some percentage of the time, you're just, like, trolling. You're just using way too many resources, and I'm like, this is, like, this isn't, you can't play like this, right? But every now and then, you've used all your resources in some ridiculous way, and then I'm like, man, you got me this time. I don't, I don't have it.
Liam:Dude,
Cameron:weaved the way to like a board state where it was like, I kind of crippled you, it was enough to get me there. And sometimes I pull the trigger on like a spot that's like, not crippling enough, and then it's just like, ah, I gotta learn the balance.
Liam:That's like the most annoying thing in the world, bro, is when people go unpunished after just like, running it down and sending all their resources at you, and you're like,
Abaan:dude
Liam:this guy,
Abaan:funniest game, I had like, some Manaphy active, and like, it was like, Pidgey, Charmander bench, and he was playing Raging Bull, and he catches my Charmander, and I'm looking at the candy Pidgey on my hand, and I was like, bro, like, it's not even about this in my hand, just take the Pidgey, like, I promise you, on average, it's just better, right? He takes the Pidgey, right? And then, I like, the next turn, I like, have to like, I just reset snap, and like, Have to like, poff in and pass, right? And then like, later, like he, off the stamp, he completely whiffs, and then I just like, Zard, and like, sweep him, right? And then afterwards, he goes, man, I should've taken the Charmander, I was like, what the, what, how is that even possibly the takeaway from that? I would've just Candy Pidgeotted, grabbed the Charmander, been completely chilling, like, leaning back, and it would've been like, ten times easier for me to beat you. Instead I had a Sacc, and he goes, man, ah, I should've listened to my gut, bro. I was like, what the hell?
Liam:Bro, it's all about the gut. It's all about the gut.
Abaan:man.
Liam:Alright we've been going on, going for an hour, somehow made another hour with like, basically zero events happening in the Pokemon community, but I think that's a good place to leave it off for today.
Abaan:It's like, we're the Seinfeld of podcasts. Oh, sorry, sorry. We're like the Seinfeld of podcasts. Like an hour podcast about nothing.
Liam:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the John Pauls R outro. We will see y'all next week.